Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

I don't think she should get special treatment. I just want her to get the same treatment as other British citizens. I am not happy about stripping her of her citizenship because of the implications that it potentially has for the many British citizens with dual heritage who may have suddenly become aware that they are apparently less British than the rest of us.

And where did she get the money for the flights?

Who helped her with what flights to book?

Who told her /the 3 girls what to say at airport if concerned?

Why did UK airport wave through one 15yo traveling alone. No little extra look at 1 or 3 15yo going to Turkey on own? Esp if in Islamic dress. Because in general jetting off for a beach hol in hijab with mates at 15 I'm guessing is unusual?

Was it in term time?

Then extra ??? surely...

But no. Who she and her friends were talking to. Not in focus.

Who paid for flights?

Not mentioned.

Why the airport didn't bat an eyelid?

Not seen it mentioned in the news.

It's useless tbh.

I find the govt and media focus on her as the 'face' of terrorism. Well it's pathetic. And just morally ethically, having any kind of care for all sorts of international agreements etc.

It's appalling and I've said that from the start.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@AlexaShutUp
She should have been treated in exactly the same way as the other British nationals in Syria.

Oh I agree. She should face trial just like white British girl Nora Camali did in Syria. But, no what Begum wants is special treatment. She wants to be brought back to UK.[/quote]
Yeah. After all that's what's important isn't it.

We should definitely make examples of occasional individuals and just ignore the fact that we're inadvertently fomenting extremism at home and abroad by not taking any responsibility

@NiceGerbil

God I don't get it

She's as British as they come

Born here raised here

We need to deal with her.

I don't understand why not.

Exactly. Born here, raised here, radicalised here. Why do we get to dump our problems on other (poorer resourced) countries?

As someone who is entitled to another citizenship (although I don't officially have it), it's terrifying that the gov can just decide that I'm not British and ship me to a place I have never been and don't speak the language.
I'm not that bothered what happens to this person, but I am worried about the precedent.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
So you're denying the USA are actively repatriating terrorists?

No, I am pointing out you lied when you said the US had repatriated ALL their terrorist citizens. When they have not. Apparently according to your link they’ve repatriated a grand total of 27. Far cry from the estimated 300-500....[/quote]
Yep you've called me a liar 3 times now. Despite me immediately correcting my post, and despite the fact that it doesn't materially change the fact that you were also incorrect (or lying by your own standards I guess) when you said I'd need to change the minds of all members of the UN Security Council. Clearly I wouldn't when the USA is actively engaged in repatriation and encouraging other nations to do it.
Which was my point.

But I can understand it's easier for you to derail with name calling than follow any kind of coherent discussion.

@KidneyBeans
So your point is that the US is morally superior to the U.K.? If so, write your MP. However, this doesn’t prove the Begums treatment is racist or misogynistic as she is getting exact same treatment as all other British or formerly British citizens is Syrian detention camps for their ISIS crimes.

@TartanJumper

As someone who is entitled to another citizenship (although I don't officially have it), it's terrifying that the gov can just decide that I'm not British and ship me to a place I have never been and don't speak the language. I'm not that bothered what happens to this person, but I am worried about the precedent.

Yes it's worrying.

Unfortunately this thread reeks of the 'I'm alright jack' attitude that created this problem in the first place.

Radicalisation of schoolgirls - not my problem
Prosecution of British war criminal - not my problem
Risk of fomenting terrorist in refugee camps - not my problem
Stripping British citizens of human rights - not my problem.

It has echoes of Pastor Niemoller's words sadly

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
So your point is that the US is morally superior to the U.K.? If so, write your MP. However, this doesn’t prove the Begums treatment is racist or misogynistic as she is getting exact same treatment as all other British or formerly British citizens is Syrian detention camps for their ISIS crimes.[/quote]
No that's not my point

You're clearly struggling

@TartanJumper

As someone who is entitled to another citizenship (although I don't officially have it), it's terrifying that the gov can just decide that I'm not British and ship me to a place I have never been and don't speak the language. I'm not that bothered what happens to this person, but I am worried about the precedent.

My concern precisely.

My dd's father was born overseas, but dd is as British as the next person. She was born here, raised here, educated here. The idea that she could suddenly be told that she is not British any more because of her father's birthplace is abhorrent.

As it happens, DH's country doesn't actually allow dual citizenship, so it would never apply to dd, but if he had been born 200 miles to the west in a neighbouring country, it could. It's so arbitrary.

It's different if people actively make a choice to become British citizens. They have to swear allegiance etc as part of that process, so if they break that vow, then strip the citizenship. If people are born British and never lay claim to any other citizenship, then it should be an inalienable right, as it is for the rest of us.

We should definitely make examples of occasional individuals and just ignore the fact that we're inadvertently fomenting extremism at home and abroad by not taking any responsibility

You are so wrong. Taking her back would only encourage extremism because it would be weak and idiotic. People would think, oh I can leave U.K., take up arms and fight in war against U.K. and then be “forgiven” and get free housing, food and “therapy” to address where “society went wrong.

@PlanDeRaccordement

We should definitely make examples of occasional individuals and just ignore the fact that we're inadvertently fomenting extremism at home and abroad by not taking any responsibility

You are so wrong. Taking her back would only encourage extremism because it would be weak and idiotic. People would think, oh I can leave U.K., take up arms and fight in war against U.K. and then be “forgiven” and get free housing, food and “therapy” to address where “society went wrong.

Yeah you keep telling me I'm wrong.

Whilst offering no evidence, claiming international law doesn't support repatriation, stating Shamima hasn't lost any benefits of citizenship and denying that the USA is actively involved in repatriation.

Excuse me if I don't I mmeduately change my mind.

According to Sajid Javid and published figures she's one of more than 120 former British jihadists who have been stripped of their citizenship following serious acts of terrorism against our country.

Far from being unfairly targeted for her sex, given that no publicity has been given for a single one of the 120+ who did what she did, it's looking a lot like we should make an exception for her & bend the rules because she's a woman.

The idea that she could suddenly be told that she is not British any more because of her father's birthplace is abhorrent.

But that’s not what would happen. To lose citizenship she’d have to commit a serious crime equivalent to high treason. Read U.K. law, they can’t just take her citizenship over most crimes, not even murder.

claiming international law doesn't support repatriation, stating Shamima hasn't lost any benefits of citizenship and denying that the USA is actively involved in repatriation.

WTAF. No international law doesn’t require repatriation....proved it. Your own post support it, it’s not mandatory. I never said she hadn’t lost any benefits of citizenship, I said losing one citizenship out of two is losing a privilege most people don’t have. I never denied the US isn’t repatriating fighters only called you out on your claim that they’d repatriated all their fighters. But go on making shit up. You’re scraping the barrel.

gjia.georgetown.edu/2020/12/17/the-growing-case-for-the-repatriation-of-foreign-terror-fighters-and-their-families/

www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/repatriating-isis-foreign-fighters-key-to-stemming-radicalization-experts-say-but-many-countries-dont-want-citizens-back/

Yeah definitely no terror risks from leaving Syria to sort it all out...

@PlanDeRaccordement

Except for the U.S.A. (Member if the UN Security Council) that has repatriated ALL of its terrorist citizens and is encouraging other nations to do so. I think we should probably be rethinking our actions when the USA is ahead of us in taking responsibility for criminal justice and global security

Lol. No they haven’t. You are lying. When Indonesia sponsored a U.N. Security Council resolution earlier in 2020 on the repatriation of ISIS foreign fighters, France, USA and U.K. all used their veto power to oppose it, asking for the removal of language about “mandatory” repatriation and instead making it an individual decision for each country. There are still formerly American women in the Syrian camps awaiting prosecution.

@PlanDeRaccordement Is this the UN resolution you mentioned?

Interesting that the USA response is they vetoed it specifically because it did not include repatriation

https://usun.usmission.gov/explanation-of-vote-on-a-un-security-council-draft-resolution-on-threats-to-international-peace-and-security-caused-by-terrorist-acts/

Guess you were lying.
Or wrong.
Again

@KidneyBeans

https://gjia.georgetown.edu/2020/12/17/the-growing-case-for-the-repatriation-of-foreign-terror-fighters-and-their-families/

www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/repatriating-isis-foreign-fighters-key-to-stemming-radicalization-experts-say-but-many-countries-dont-want-citizens-back/

Yeah definitely no terror risks from leaving Syria to sort it all out...

So write your MP? You have a different opinion from your U.K. government and the laws and policies they have in place. Doesn’t mean I’m wrong as I’ve only stated what the policies and laws in place NOW state and require. You can post American opinion piece after opinion piece but that doesn’t change the decisions made by your government.

I’ve only stated what the policies and laws in place NOW state and require

Except you're wrong. Again.
There's nothing preventing repatriation
The UN have even written guidance on it.
It's a moral decision not a legal one

https://www.un.org/counterterrorism/sites/www.un.org.counterterrorism/files/keyprinciples-aprill_2019.pd

You deny the Uk has any responsibility in radicalisation and support leaving poorer war torn countries to deal with extremists born and radicalised in the UK.

I think we should take responsibility for them as part of wider counter-terrorism and anti-radicalisation activity.

I don't expect we'll ever agree

You can post American opinion piece after opinion piece but that doesn’t change the decisions made by your government.

Gosh - you mean a MN discussion board won't achieve that?

I really am glad you're here. Your strategic advice is invaluable....

Oddly enough that's not my goal here.
It's a discussion board. I'm discussing. That's how it works.

Also @PlanDeRaccordement that 'American opinion piece' was written by a law professor and Human rights expert from Newcastle university

So not American.
And certainly informed opinion.
Though of course you've already claimed to know better.

There's nothing preventing repatriation
Except UK government. My point was their decision is not illegal or unusual as you were implying. Most countries are not repatriating ISIS members.

'Only Bangladesh are denying she is a citizen.
Whether she is or not is not up to the British Gov. to decide. Bangladesh don't want her either. She has to go somewhere.'

She was born raised educated grew up here.

She's British.

Finding a loophole in order to wash hands of her is a cowardly move. It stinks.

Esp when as OP pointed out all the men who have been treated differently and not being brought to press attention. Who were grown ups.

Justice applying equally to everyone when it patently doesn’t then you leave yourself open to radicals pointing that out to their target audience

But you are arguing that Begum deserves different preferential treatment from all the 120 other British ISIS members...that flies in the face of justice applied equally does it not? And is she the right poster girl for such an exception to justice applied equally and to all?