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Feminism: chat

Is there anything wrong in looking "slutty"?

118 replies

Tsubasa1 · 15/08/2021 16:40

I'm just wondering if there's anything wrong with feeling sexy and wearing sexy clothes. I get the impression it's not okay from some of the threads on mumsnet. I've started buying new clothes recently, that could be considered slutty, obviously because it's hot but they make me feel good aswell.

OP posts:
UnGoogled · 16/08/2021 07:43

That's an unhelpful, slightly gross comment.

Iloveginger · 16/08/2021 07:54

You should be able to wear whatever you like without being subject to sexual harassment or rape, but if you do wear clothes that are overtly sexual in the traditional sense, then people will view you in a sexual way,
Entirely your choice, but don’t then complain that your work colleagues aren’t taking you seriously when you don’t present yourself in a professional way.
We are judged, both men and women alike on how we dress and present ourselves and to think otherwise is very naive.

midgemagneto · 16/08/2021 08:45

I would like to separate here the concept of sexual attention and behaviour and abuse /rape

Rape is I understand more about power than attraction

So yes you should be able to wear what you like without rape, but thinking you can wear attractive things without garnering attraction is a bit odd

Given we are a species which makes snap judgement and communicates through clothes and appearance I suspect it's unlikely we will ever get to a stage where clothes don't mean anything

I would like to get to a stage where women's clothing choices were as significantl as men's , ie much less important , much less sexualised

SmokedDuck · 16/08/2021 12:06

The idea that anyone can "show off" their fertility without it having to do with the opposite sex (or sometimes maybe the same sex,) or without it attracting attention from said people, seems to be pretty naive with regards to human biology.

Broadcasting our fertility has a long and pretty ubiquitous history, it's something that we share with most mammals and for that matter even plants. If we imagine we can somehow separate that from sex we're going to be disappointed.

SmokedDuck · 16/08/2021 12:08

@midgemagneto

I would like to separate here the concept of sexual attention and behaviour and abuse /rape

Rape is I understand more about power than attraction

So yes you should be able to wear what you like without rape, but thinking you can wear attractive things without garnering attraction is a bit odd

Given we are a species which makes snap judgement and communicates through clothes and appearance I suspect it's unlikely we will ever get to a stage where clothes don't mean anything

I would like to get to a stage where women's clothing choices were as significantl as men's , ie much less important , much less sexualised

I think that's what a lot of feminist say, and think, they want.

But it's not entirely compatible with also saying that wearing clothing meant to highlight sex roles, and sexualize women, is a woman's choice that should have no consequence. That's not an ideological point, it's a logical point, they are actually contradictory at a basic level.

midgemagneto · 16/08/2021 12:48

It is utterly illogical to say that wearing clothes designed to attract should have no effect , yip

PurpleParrotfish · 16/08/2021 12:58

I think there’s a difference between visible flesh and clothes designed to sexualise and objectify, i.e. woman in a strappy top and short shorts in a heatwave vs someone wearing a corset top, tight skirt and high heels.
Oh and a PP said that ‘slut’ had been reclaimed and just means a woman who likes sex. Sadly not, it’s still a grim word used to describe women perceived as sexually available to men.

PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2021 13:07

Is there anything wrong with looking “slutty”?

No. Don’t like the term either. But if you dress to attract, you will attract male attention and that attention can be both positive and/or negative.
Personally, I think dressing specifically to attract male attention is unfeminist. But I know other feminists think the exact opposite, hence the “slut walks” and numerous other stunts heralded as feminist and empowering but always seem to involve putting your tits on display.

WinglessSonglessBird · 16/08/2021 13:17

As far as getting all-out harassed, or attacked, over clothes. Whoever said you can get that no matter what you wear, no matter how ugly or sexy the clothes are, is right. Hell, even middle eastern women who are literally covered head to toe still get raped, attacked, etc. It's not ONLY the clothes (though yes, clothes signify things historically for humans, mostly cuz we are mammals, as said); it is moreso the attitude of societies.

Men, or women, that want to harass, attack, rape someone will do so regardless of clothes. And attention is different than harassing/attacking, which is a great point.

Part of this imo, is the societal belief that women must police their bodies for the benefit of males. For example, a long time ago, my sister's school would not allow tank tops because it made it too hard for the boys to do well in school. While that might be a biological reality, we are humans with supposed higher thought. So instead of teaching the boys to just admire a girl, think she's pretty, etc BUT not be entitled, or mad cuz they can't have her body, or blame them for poor grades...we instead say how awful the girls are and ooh those poor boys. It doesn't teach the boys responsibility or restraint or control. And it is a fact that even if you are covered head to toe, hell even wore a tent, that anyone wanting to attack someone probably will. The clothes are the wrong issue. Obviously a factor, but I think the focus on clothing does a disservice.

I mean, I've worn tshirts with cartoons on em cuz I like em and I have noticed in life that older, creepy (pedophile-y vibe) men bee line to me. I can't handle it so don't wear what I like (and no it's not sexy, revealing stuff at all, literally kids stuff), because I do not want to deal with it. Sucks, but is reality. Shouldn't be that way, but is. I've taken to wearing the must ugly, baggy clothing and just wear what I like in my mind. I'm "ugly" by society's standards anyway. I actually like when my friends comment nicely on a shirt or etc, though I have zero interest in the dating game or finding a partner.

If some people like the attention or they feel good for looking sexy, cool, their choice. It's down to others to learn, understand that even if everyone walked around naked that you shouldn't be harassing anyone or attacking cuz you can't control your own urges or mind--that's your fault, not anyone else's clothes or body.

However, I've had even therapists say if I don't want to be harassed by any group of people over my body then wear something else. If I don't want pedophile-y creepy men saying creepy shit to me, then wear something else. Thing is, I've had this no matter what I've worn. It's similar to me about teaching girls to carry a key in your fist to feel safe. It's a false sense of security to think that if you are "ugly" or dress horribly that you are safe from attacks. You are not. Also diverts attention from the real issue is that societies never teach boys that that's ok they find a girl attractive but you have to control your urges etc ffs!

Umm, I'm pretty sure all those women in middle eastern countries would cry and rofl at the thought that covering up more protects you!

Obviously setting is factor: work vs a vacation type thing. But still. Since all this crap is a reality for now, I guess the only thing to do is either challenge it, en masse (and by education, to the boys as well), or do the whole "key in fist when going to carpark at night" false-sense-of-security thing, and keep avoiding the underlying issues.

The prettiest thing I've worn is a dress or skirt, and not mini short ones. Oddly though, I felt somewhat prettier (probably cuz we are socialized to learn and copy what is "sexy" "pretty" etc) so in my mind, the script was like, hey you are in these clothes that are "supposed" to be this way so that's how you should feel. However even though I could admire, say, a dress's beauty on a visual level, nice clothes do equal unsafe, to me. Same with make up. I've had both men and women tell me if you don't want sex, don't wear dresses, skirts, make up or jewelry, of any sort.

However, I've been in some scary situations where it was not the clothes (baggy, frumpy, not fashionable, etc), and didn't matter.

So I guess I dress to feel safe which has been more important to me than me feeling ok with myself looks-wise. I literally got rid of any and all clothes that could even be remotely considered "sexy" "pretty" etc. I'm not trans, though if people think that, I don't care. Still wear girls' clothes. However I've even had people say that just wearing pink is a sexual signifier. Much to my sadness cuz that's in my top 3 favorite colors. I honestly think wearing clothing that covers you head to toe would make me feel safe, and if it wasn't cultural appropiation and the ties to extremists, I probably might. However even I know it's a false sense of security.

Being upset for people purely looking at you is kinda over the top. Cuz you get looked at no matter what.

It depends on any given day what you are more worried about depending on your mood and where exactly you are going: your self-esteem as far as body image, or your perceived safety (not real life safety, note).

Umm even little kids get attacked ffs.

So any time men attack a girl or woman, the response is to say, oh those poor guys, can't help their biology, can't use their brains, control, willpower...we will just have to police the girls more. However that has NEVER worked, ever, in any society. The mindset as a whole has to change. I mean, maybe some do, but do women go around harassing and attacking and raping men cuz they had their shirts off and 6 pack abs flaunted?? But the men can't help themselves so they get a free pass to violence, harassment, entitlement, and policing women's bodies. It's crazy.

People say, well it's human nature, men's nature. Ok, but supposedly humans have higher thought and all that. The older I get, the more I think humans are even worse than animals, and nothing more than animals, and actually pretty shitty ones if you graded all animals. No other animal destroys the earth, knowing they are. No other animal purposely starts mass wars and violence just because they hate someone. Imagine if the squirrels were like, omg I just hate those crows and can't stand em just because so lets band together and kill all crows. Obviously animals fight over food, territory, even mates, but there are no mass murderer or rapist other animals for the pure purpose of trite shit like race, religion. Humans have way too much entitlement. And humans treat eachother worse than animals or anything else. Your biggest threat on earth is another human; think about it. I guess since humans are the top predators on earth maybe it's only natural that the top predators end up killing each other (of course viruses and illnesses play a part, but as far as another animal predator).

As much as humans claim to be the smartest, most enlightened, higher-brain/thought animals...I sincerely question this.

I say where what you want but just explore your own emotions and thoughts about it (your own, and maybe where you got them and if you actually want to have that mindset or not), and do what makes you feel comfortable or happy or safe, whatever that means to you.

It is interesting that some people find dressing sexy empowering. And some people find it is the opposite. I feel society expects to appear sexy all the time, though then mad when do. Some take that back and reclaim it. Some shun it. I don't think either is wrong. It is different ways of responding to the same underlying issues. To each their own.

Also, girls are taught at a young age that their beauty is their only worth, that being pretty is for fun (think of barbies, play make-up, dress up games, etc) but then you get older and that same stuff is now bad and it is not allowed to be fun or that you just like it. I think it's very confusing for girls, and by extension the boys.

Steakandcheeseplease · 16/08/2021 13:19

@Tsubasa1

I apologize for using that term, I honestly thought that the term "slut" had been reclaimed by women (much like the term queer has been reclaimed), probably from hearing about the "slut walks" and so on. Well I'm not buying the clothes to get sexual attention, just because I like the clothes and feel attractive in them. *@robotcollision* so if a man responds with unwanted behaviour, it's okay because wearing those clothes is asking for that?
No dear it hasn't. Slut is still a derogatory term.

Also, many gay people hate the word 'queer'. They are old enough to still remember the hate & bigotry that lies behind it. Its only the young folk who claimed the word 'queer' because by the time they wanted to use it rights had been put in place and things had changed massively. So they reclaimed a word that had took decades to stamp out.

You seem knew to all this but hey if you want to dress as a 'slut' what ever you think that is - crack on .

Theoldprospector · 16/08/2021 13:37

‘The idea that anyone can "show off" their fertility without it having to do with the opposite sex (or sometimes maybe the same sex,) or without it attracting attention from said people, seems to be pretty naive with regards to human biology.’

Of course it has something to do with the opposite sex, but it also isn’t all about the opposite sex.

Women shouldn’t have to hide fertility markers like health and youth just because of how men might react.

One of the major markers is long hair. Should women have to cover their hair?

What about hip to waist ratio. Should women not wear trousersbecause it might show the relative size of their waist and hips? Should they wear a traditional skirt to disguise hips and abdomen?

Should they not go swimming? Should they not run or do anything that shows their physical fitness?

Should there be no women in the olympics in case men respond to all the youth and health on display?

All these things ‘show off’ fertility markers. All of these are things men have tried to curtail women from doing because it might tempt men with their youth, health and physical fitness.

I suspect what is really meant here is not don’t appear too sexually attractive but don’t appear too much like a young working class woman.

WinglessSonglessBird · 16/08/2021 13:43

And men probably have an ulterior-motive interest in supporting the idea that wearing super revealing clothes is empowerment. Duh, they can ogle women more, for better or worse, just saying. Not saying that women do not feel empowered by it, some clearly do, and in some sense I can see why (looking so sexy but denying men what they want, out of protest?) Also not giving a shit what anyone, man or woman thinks, which is freeing?. It does in some sense strip men's power away to a point in societies where women can wear sexy or minimal clothing and can tell all, some, or none of the men that they can or can't touch them, it seems. I do see the protest aspect; like, hey us women have been objects forever, worse depending on what we wear, so eff you all we will wear the sexiest clothing but you can't touch only look, how do you like that so learn to control your own urges and minds cuz that's your issue not my body's. I don't feel empowered that way and definitely not safe, but that's me. I do admire women who seem confident in their bodies and can wear anything and not give a crap whose attention they attract or miss a step in life cuz of it. They aren't cowering cuz men can't control themselves (I mean the men that harass, attack. Obviously you are gonna be looked at no matter what).

But say humans had equality from the beginning between males and females, would women have evolved to even think that "sexy" clothes are empowering in the first place? I don't know. They are only empowering in the sense that mostly, usually those clothes have NOT been empowering. Reclaiming it, I guess. It's down to how each person finds their own empowerment and I don't think either is wrong. We are all responding to a messed up world.

I ignore my body and hate clothes so it is mostly for the public's benefit, within my own color/style tastes. Clothes also show your likes/dislikes sometimes. Like a shirt from a movie, say: hey I love this movie type of thing.

Also, I will point out that girls and women are constantly told to dress more "grown up" as they get older, which equates to "sexier", more revealing clothing. Like, wear a V-neck, cuz the regular ones are for kids. Or things like, You'd look more grown up if you wore clothes that showed your figure. Flat shoes are for kids. It is very odd to me. But then girls are chastised as adults if they do.

Also, a lot of times (has happened to me, and others I know) when a women puts effort/time into appearance--say, some make up, nicer clothes of whatever variety, you are accused of being vain, attention seeking, etc etc and all other manner of bad things. But if you DON'T do that you are accused of letting yourself go, mentally ill, can't take of yourself, dirty, etc etc.

We will be damned if we do, damned if we don't. Do what makes you FEEL most safe, comfortable, happy, empowered, whatever... and explore if your own attitudes in the context of society are working for you internally. 20 people will have 20 different opinions anyway.

I choose to look the ugliest, unkempt 75% of the time cuz I've learned that works for me. Obviously it's a false sense of security, but we do what we can with limited options. I do consider it brave or lots of endurance or something to dress pretty or sexy if you want and truly feel empowered and safe. I still don't think I would even if I liked my appearance and even if I didn't care about being attacked. However society has shaped me to consider that brave, and I recognize that.

I was one of those girls that loved barbies. Loved picking out outfits cuz they were pretty or cute or etc. I'm pretty sure most young girls are doing it for fun, a game, the aesthetics. Even your own clothes--a fun shirt for first day of school cuz you liked and wanted to show your friends. It's strange that then all of sudden it's equated with bad (obviously cuz the whole puberty thing, and men own the world and women, but to a kid...I think it takes some of us longer to realize that, no, these are NOT just clothes and not just for fun, and they are NOT just for you and your body? Kinda a slap in the face imo).

Cakemonger · 16/08/2021 13:44

There is no such thing as a 'slut', therefore slutty is a nonsense term. Men don't get called slutty for wearing revealing clothing. Wear what you feel comfortable/happy in and what is appropriate for the occasion.

ferretface · 16/08/2021 13:45

Clothes might be designed to enhance or highlight sexual characteristics but that doesn't mean they are an invitation to behave like a predator.

So yes, clothes might show off, say, cleavage, and it's probably to be expected that people will notice that and find it attractive. What's not ok is if their noticing takes the form of unacceptable behaviour (e.g. making lewd gestures, not taking no for an answer, sexual assault, inappropriate comments, persistent staring which clearly makes the object of the attention uncomfortable).

Receiving more attention than usual (e.g people keener to try and engage you in conversation, offers of help etc) isn't necessarily inappropriate as long as it's politely expressed and lack of interest doesn't cause that aggressive spurned response which so many men seem to do.

RiverSkater · 16/08/2021 13:53

If a man can walk about with no shirt on and not worry about unwanted sexual attention then you should be able to do the same and wear what you like.

SmokedDuck · 16/08/2021 14:34

@Theoldprospector

‘The idea that anyone can "show off" their fertility without it having to do with the opposite sex (or sometimes maybe the same sex,) or without it attracting attention from said people, seems to be pretty naive with regards to human biology.’

Of course it has something to do with the opposite sex, but it also isn’t all about the opposite sex.

Women shouldn’t have to hide fertility markers like health and youth just because of how men might react.

One of the major markers is long hair. Should women have to cover their hair?

What about hip to waist ratio. Should women not wear trousersbecause it might show the relative size of their waist and hips? Should they wear a traditional skirt to disguise hips and abdomen?

Should they not go swimming? Should they not run or do anything that shows their physical fitness?

Should there be no women in the olympics in case men respond to all the youth and health on display?

All these things ‘show off’ fertility markers. All of these are things men have tried to curtail women from doing because it might tempt men with their youth, health and physical fitness.

I suspect what is really meant here is not don’t appear too sexually attractive but don’t appear too much like a young working class woman.

The context here is "slutty" clothes.

What that means, unless the Op was using the words in an odd way, is clothes that are intended to sexualize the wearer, that is, present them as a sex object.

There is a real subjective element to this, as clothing conventions are different in different places and times, but they are nonetheless real in the same sense that language is real while at the same time being a symbolic representation. We have clothing conventions that are fairly standard - what you might wear to an office, or a school event - and there are also clothes that because of local conventions are meant to be interpreted as suggesting sexual availability, objectification, etc. The conventions might not be quite the same in every culture, or even in every setting within a culture. But whatever they are, its still possible to deliberately try and use clothing styles to sexualize the wearer.

That's not some kind of accident, that is the purpose of the design - to push whatever the cultural buttons are to send those signals. Miley Cyrus doesn't wear a flesh-toned latex bodysuit thinking that it just happens to reveal her waits to hip ratio. It's designed specifically to push the envelope in terms of what is conventionally considered ok to wear in public. It's not the same thing as going to the beach to swim wearing something designed to make swimming practical. It's not even the same as wearing something designed to be flattering and attractive.
The thing is, lots of women's clothes are designed to push the sexualization of women. Men's clothes, typically, are not. When women decide to opt into that different treatment, wittingly or unwittingly they are saying that it is an ok thing to sexualize women. It is ok for clothing designers, it is ok for the culture at large, it is ok for men, it is ok for boys in schools. And maybe there are some cases where it is ok, if you are going out with the idea of hooking up, maybe that's what it's about. On the other hand sexualising women if their workplaces, girls in schools, and calling it empowerment, doesn't seem likely to have good outcomes.

Iloveginger · 16/08/2021 14:37

@RiverSkater

If a man can walk about with no shirt on and not worry about unwanted sexual attention then you should be able to do the same and wear what you like.
Do you judge men that walk around with no top on.
Theoldprospector · 16/08/2021 14:50

A flesh toned latex bodysuit is fetish wear.

I don’t think that is what we are talking about in terms of ordinary women wanting to look attractive i.e. young and healthy in ordinary life.

znaika · 16/08/2021 18:15

I hate the body positive movement approach. Sure wear what you enjoy and feel comfortable in but it is entirely disingenuous to pretend you don't know what you're doing if you arse is hanging out.

I find it creepy. I saw a man on the metro with some loose shorts and legs open so I could see his balls. Every single person agrees with me that he was flesh-crawlingly repulsive to do that. Yet when I have seen young women with their labia hanging out, or buttocks showing, or tops so low cut I can see the areola I am supposed to applaud them?

Well I don't, they are just as unsettlingly skeevy and creepy as the guy slyly flashing his balls. There are limits.

KimikosNightmare · 16/08/2021 19:00

I think it's empowering to deflect the male gaze by wearing clothes that aren't designed to invite sexual attention

What a bizarre mindset.

KimikosNightmare · 16/08/2021 19:04

@robotcollision

Clothes are bits of fabric that cover a body. They do NOT "invite sexual attention" regardless of the styling.

However much we might want that to be true ideologically, it just isn't true. I am very aware how different clothes I wear affect how I am treated. If I wear loose trousers and a padded anorak I am invisible to men. They don't serve me immediately in bars or shops. If I wear a fitted tee shirt and jeans, I've noticed it's a weird sweet spot where I don't look like I'm coming on to men but they are extra nice to me - they offer to carry my bags or let me off the bus fare. If I wear a skin tight body con dress and heels, there's an almost aggressive lust like the incel mindset that it's unfair some people have access to sex if they don't. Some of them will approach and some will treat me with distain. FWIW I'm mid fifties and very average in every way. It's the clothes they are responding to, not me. Surely other women have noticed this?

No. I'm 62. I love clothes. I love dressing up- always have done. In my younger days I probably was very pretty but your experiences are nothing like anything I've come across.
Iloveginger · 16/08/2021 19:16

@Cakemonger

There is no such thing as a 'slut', therefore slutty is a nonsense term. Men don't get called slutty for wearing revealing clothing. Wear what you feel comfortable/happy in and what is appropriate for the occasion.
But a man intentionally trying to wear a 'sexy' outfit would have the piss ripped out of him. Imagine Colin turning up to the office in a pair of tight leather trousers.
Lessthanaballpark · 16/08/2021 19:17

It’s a tough one, because when we have for so long been judged as “asking for it” by wearing revealing clothes there are only two reactions:

Tell women to wear modest clothes and thereby reinforce the idea that what women wear is responsible for men’s reactions and that it’s ok to judge women’s clothing.

Or

Assert that women can wear whatever they want because freedom but then usher in this absurd concept of sexy = self empowerment as well as deny the reality that men do react differently to women depending on how they dress.

It’s a no win situation.

Iloveginger · 16/08/2021 19:31

@Lessthanaballpark

It’s a tough one, because when we have for so long been judged as “asking for it” by wearing revealing clothes there are only two reactions:

Tell women to wear modest clothes and thereby reinforce the idea that what women wear is responsible for men’s reactions and that it’s ok to judge women’s clothing.

Or

Assert that women can wear whatever they want because freedom but then usher in this absurd concept of sexy = self empowerment as well as deny the reality that men do react differently to women depending on how they dress.

It’s a no win situation.

Wearing sexy clothing is going to invite attention, but it isn't an invitation to sex. Clothing is not responsible for rape.
lazylinguist · 16/08/2021 19:58

Clothes are bits of fabric that cover a body. They do NOT "invite sexual attention" regardless of the styling

There is no excuse whatsoever for men giving women unsolicited sexual attention based on what they are wearing (or on anything else). But that doesn't mean that you can claim that people's clothing choices have no cultural or social significance.

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