Please would MNHQ clarify the rules?

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

Would @MNHQ (is that the right username?) please clarify the new situation? There's confusion & I think it will save everybody time if there's clarification.

As I understand it, this board is for any discussion of feminist topics where the topic & discussion does not include any mention of gender critical or trans issues. Therefore, nobody partaking in a discussion here can say what their definition of terms is. All we can do is talk about women & men. As soon as anyone says, e.g. 'inclusive' or 'ALL women' or 'biological females', the thread gets transferred to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.

Again as I understand it, the board split was about discussion topics & what's said within discussions. The split was neither of the following:

(a) all 'inclusive' feminists can post here & in 'Sex & Gender Debate', but 'gender critical' feminists can only post in 'Sex & Gender Debate'.
Rather, the board split is not a split between users, but between discussions, with the same rules applying to everyone.

(b) 'Feminist Chat' is now for the sole use of 'inclusive' feminists, who will be able to discuss those 'inclusive' views to their heart's content. As soon as a user posts any disagreement with those 'inclusive' views & definitions, the thread will be moved to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.
Rather, as I've said, nobody can attempt to define terms & impose those on anyone else. Anyone who attempts to do that will cause the thread to be moved to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.

From a discussion yesterday, it was apparent that some users view the board split as meaning (a) or (b) above. Clarification would be very helpful.

I'd also like to know whether penalties will apply to a user who causes a thread to be moved, by posting definitions or assumptions of terms. It's been suggested that Dark Forces of Misogyny might try to scupper any discussion on this board which is getting somewhere, by deliberately causing it to be moved. I don't know how big a threat that is.

Help please, MNHQ!

Even if a thread is moved to the silo of Sex and Gender debate, the discussion can still continue, if people are willing to post in that environment.

Yes, I don't get how a discussion board can work when different views on topics are shifted to different sections.

If the previous content of 'feminist chat' was found to exclude some posters, maybe there should be a sub-section for people who want to talk about issues other than sex-based oppression and rights?

Especially in light of the recent ruling that holding a view that men and women are discrete biological entities is lawful.

I suppose the argument is that it might less visible, & that it would cut down the number of users wanting to take part. It might increase them! I don't know, I just saw it suggested somewhere.

You might get a quick response or indeed any response, @ifIwerenotanandroid, if you email @MNHQ direct rather than ask for a discussion here.

That reply was to @AssassinatedBeauty

How do I email them? I thought you could sort of send up smoke signals using @MNHQ & hope someone there noticed. I've never tried before.

I wasn't trying to start a discussion: this was really trying to attract MNHQ's attention!

Yes, I don't get how a discussion board can work when different views on topics are shifted to different sections

Just follow both topics?

@ifIwerenotanandroid

How do I email them? I thought you could sort of send up smoke signals using *@MNHQ* & hope someone there noticed. I've never tried before.

I wasn't trying to start a discussion: this was really trying to attract MNHQ's attention!

Their email is [email protected] or you can report your opening post and ask them to comment on the thread.

Cheers, Empress!

I've now reported the original post & asked for a response here.

Hi @ifIwerenotanandroid,

It's still early days and we're seeing how the two sections bed in.
We want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards.
The sections are separated by subject matter and we're looking at moving threads on a case by case basis - for now we're trying to moderate with a light touch.

Here's a quote from JustineMumsnet which might help to explain things:

'we intend to streamline the topics in the FWR category from five down to two: one ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, and one Feminism Chat topic. This doesn’t mean that every thread mentioning sex or biology will be moved to the ‘Sex/Gender debate’ topic, which would as many of you have pointed out be unworkable and odd. It’s not about pushing gender-critical feminists into a ghetto, but it is about clearly signposting where people can find conversations - between all kinds of feminists - of the ‘what does it mean to be a woman, are trans women women, is trans-inclusive feminism/activism/language impacting on women’ variety, and providing a separate topic without conversations of that kind.'

As always, if you're concerned about any post or poster then please do send in a report - we're always fine to take a look.

Thanks Michael (Just a note to OP - I don't think there's a user account called @mnhq - you have to report it or tag in an individual mod).

Ironically splitting the boards and not having one thread announcing this has meant it's quite hard to find but those of us on this thread can at least point people to this in the many other threads it's being 'debated'!

Would be interested to know how many threads have been moved between the two boards so far? (eg at the request of a user not happy about which one it's in)?

Thank you @MichaelMumsnet

It is all working really well. I think it's an improvement.

If the previous content of 'feminist chat' was found to exclude some posters, maybe there should be a sub-section for people who want to talk about issues other than sex-based oppression and rights?

The split isn't "sex-based oppression and rights" and "other".

There's been a concerted effort to counter the "hashtag no debate" successfully and it now has its own board on Mumsnet. I think that is brilliant.

The new board isn't "other" or "non GC" or any other label than feminism chat. It is just not about the debate that sprang up in response to "hashtag no debate". There's no judgment or hiding or silencing

I see this as a positive, that the era of "no debate" is well and truly over, and we can talk about feminism without antagonism about which tribe you are in on that debate. Long may it continue.

My understanding is: if you want to talk about trans people, head over to the gender debate board. If you want to talk about any other aspect of feminism, post in feminist chat.

The way to get round this is to call the gender debate board ‘trans issues’, which mumsnet suggested and were shot down. But that’s it in a nutshell.

I’m not sure it’s that big a deal either. I look at busy threads that run through Active and join in the ones I’m interested in. I don’t care if they’re in Feminist Chat or Sex and Gender.

@MichaelMumsnet - have you any idea how silly this is making you look. I dont know whether actual human being are taking the decisions about threads to be moved or you have some algorithm doing it but it just isn't working.

There are threads on here which include comments about women's sex based rights.

You may be under the illusion that there is a "debate" about sex vs. gender, but there isn't. There are just a lot of posters on mumsnet who are concerned to protect women's sex based rights.

And the fact that there are no "rules " on the new chat section just shows how little you or @MNHQ understand the content of posts.

And if you dont understand how can you decide what to move.

As it is, at the moment, assuming I have some graps of the weird thinking of mumsnet, many of the threads on "chat" should be moved to the the FWR board (where nobody is debating "gender" - honestly how tone death is that heading?).

That is because, surprise surprise, discrimination against women is becaue of their sex!

How do you think it makes mumsnet look that they are imposing somesort of bureau of right thinking behind closed doors decision making.

Apart from the fact that it is just plain rude, if you really believe in what you are doing then each time you move a thread you would leave and marker AND an explanation of why, in your great wisdom, you think it should be moved.

The fact that you dont just illustrates that this is a wildly silly exercise apparently based on .... what?

@stumbledin

I've just scanned down the two boards and cannot see a problem.

I liked the change. Seems very clear to me

Of course you can't see a problem, Orange. You've been unbelievably rude to me over the past two days - I think you've had a post deleted because of it.

So, sure, a few people are very happy indeed.

That doesn't mean it's working, just that it's working how you like it.

Orangecircling - I am not saying there is a problem - I am just saying the so called division is plain silly. Many of the threads on the "chat" section are discussing women's sex based rights. But these are the "naughty" words that mumsnet thinks should be sent to the other board because for some reason then think women should stand up for their sex based rights.

Its not the titles obviously - it is what is said.

And women are saying much the same thing on both boards, so why has mumsnet split them.

ie that women are oppressed because of the sex they are born, and that whatever discrimination or alienation a trans person many have experience it isn't and cannot be the same as those born female.

So even the discussion on women's health, or reproductive system are about the fact that what women have in common is their sex. As is equal pay.

Its like mumsnet have put their fingers in their ears and are going la la la I cant hear you.

And it seems cant see you - as they are not moving threads based on the criteria they have set.

And of course in undermines the positive aspect of mumsnet talk, which is having a common space to join in, share, learn and disagree with other women.

It seems that there is a small but vocal group who dont want to be part of that larger more diverse group. They only want to hear those who dont challenge them, and have gone whining to mumsnet saying, I cant find the threads I like and when I do I cant post on them because there are other threads I dont like on either side of them.

So its like saying I want to support women, but only the women I like and I've asked mummy to pretend that my view of the world is rights so she has created my own little playground.

@stumbledin

Orangecircling - I am not saying there is a problem - I am just saying the so called division is plain silly. Many of the threads on the "chat" section are discussing women's sex based rights. But these are the "naughty" words that mumsnet thinks should be sent to the other board because for some reason then think women should stand up for their sex based rights.

Its not the titles obviously - it is what is said.

And women are saying much the same thing on both boards, so why has mumsnet split them.

ie that women are oppressed because of the sex they are born, and that whatever discrimination or alienation a trans person many have experience it isn't and cannot be the same as those born female.

So even the discussion on women's health, or reproductive system are about the fact that what women have in common is their sex. As is equal pay.

Its like mumsnet have put their fingers in their ears and are going la la la I cant hear you.

And it seems cant see you - as they are not moving threads based on the criteria they have set.

And of course in undermines the positive aspect of mumsnet talk, which is having a common space to join in, share, learn and disagree with other women.

It seems that there is a small but vocal group who dont want to be part of that larger more diverse group. They only want to hear those who dont challenge them, and have gone whining to mumsnet saying, I cant find the threads I like and when I do I cant post on them because there are other threads I dont like on either side of them.

So its like saying I want to support women, but only the women I like and I've asked mummy to pretend that my view of the world is rights so she has created my own little playground.

Would it help if they renamed the new topic ‘trans discussion’?

I'm not seeing it as complicated.

If it's about GC issues post on that board.

You can still talk about women on the feminism board, and people are.

But if you want to discussion what a woman is that becomes a sex and gender debate issue.

Splitting it potentially allows both areas to grow

Im not sure what there is to be confused about.