Please would MNHQ clarify the rules?

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

Would @MNHQ (is that the right username?) please clarify the new situation? There's confusion & I think it will save everybody time if there's clarification.

As I understand it, this board is for any discussion of feminist topics where the topic & discussion does not include any mention of gender critical or trans issues. Therefore, nobody partaking in a discussion here can say what their definition of terms is. All we can do is talk about women & men. As soon as anyone says, e.g. 'inclusive' or 'ALL women' or 'biological females', the thread gets transferred to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.

Again as I understand it, the board split was about discussion topics & what's said within discussions. The split was neither of the following:

(a) all 'inclusive' feminists can post here & in 'Sex & Gender Debate', but 'gender critical' feminists can only post in 'Sex & Gender Debate'.
Rather, the board split is not a split between users, but between discussions, with the same rules applying to everyone.

(b) 'Feminist Chat' is now for the sole use of 'inclusive' feminists, who will be able to discuss those 'inclusive' views to their heart's content. As soon as a user posts any disagreement with those 'inclusive' views & definitions, the thread will be moved to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.
Rather, as I've said, nobody can attempt to define terms & impose those on anyone else. Anyone who attempts to do that will cause the thread to be moved to 'Sex & Gender Debate'.

From a discussion yesterday, it was apparent that some users view the board split as meaning (a) or (b) above. Clarification would be very helpful.

I'd also like to know whether penalties will apply to a user who causes a thread to be moved, by posting definitions or assumptions of terms. It's been suggested that Dark Forces of Misogyny might try to scupper any discussion on this board which is getting somewhere, by deliberately causing it to be moved. I don't know how big a threat that is.

Help please, MNHQ!

So far I find the change very non-user friendly and annoying. It's all feminism, all relevant, I see no advantage in splitting the boards and expending time and energy working out where a post is supposed to go. Then the posts are often moved, which is disorientating. Just a time waste, confusing and irritating.

Also, as I said above, some posters seem to have taken the split as an opportunity to mount personal attacks, use misogynist slurs and tell posters that they're not welcome in one board.

It's made this board feel hostile and unpleasant. Not happy.

I'm confused. Someone always comes on the threads, any threads, saying women just want to talk about trans rights. I'm bothered about women's rights and maintaining the ones we have. At this rate every thread will end up in (the wrongly named) feminism:sex and gender section.

I just skimmed your op but my take is it’s split by topic not viewpoint

So any sex and gender discussion gets moved whether it’s GC or not

It's all feminism

It's all under the banner of feminism board
I see no advantage in splitting the boards
But other people do and you can still use both.

expending time and energy working out where a post is supposed to go.
This is a bit disingenuous. If it rrelates to Trans, GC, maya Forester etc it probably should be in the feminism sex and gender debate board; if it doesn't it goes in the feminism chat

Also, as I said above, some posters seem to have taken the split as an opportunity to mount personal attacks, use misogynist slurs and tell posters that they're not welcome in one board

And it’s only the non-GC posters who seem happy with the change, as far as I can see. Apart from the Twitter misogynists.

But "GC issues" encompasses so much - anything that's assumed to be a facet of a woman because of their sex is a GC issue. So stuff like the mental load is a GC issue because we don't think that it's a gender role that women should automatically take on.

“ It's made this board feel hostile and unpleasant. Not happy “

Oh the irony.

Literally thousands on mners ( see posts from Justine passim ) have hidden FWR, and have pointed out it’s hostility towards non GC posters, for literally years now.

Mnhq have not taken away the GC playground. They’ve renamed the board, and provided a second board for feminism that doesn’t centre a GC viewpoint.

And duh, the non GC feminists are happy about this. Shocker.

It’s not rocket science, and no one has taken away anyone’s toys.

I feel bad for mnhq and the mods that they’re getting so much grief from the GC regulars about this, when they’ve stuck by them so fiercely.

For a self-reportedly intelligent witty educated bunch who are incredibly insightful at dissecting laws, guidance, statistics and case studies, the GC regulars seem to be having awful trouble understanding the there is now an additional board that is basically “feminist stuff that isn’t all about the GC angle”

Seriously, just get over it and move on.

The word literally gets misused so often these days.

it’s only the non-GC posters

I'm not sure that's true. Woke family members consider me one of "those horrible transphobic woman" , (although my support of well done unisex bathrooms has led to howls of handmaiden from better GC women in the past).

But then is there a problem with non GC women being happy with the change? Is it wrong that some women feel more comfortable with seperate spaces where they feel their own needs are better met?

I haven’t seen much happiness from non GC, rather some anger spilling out, but fine if they are

I’m ok with the split. It has some upsides I hadn’t thought about - apart from some slurs and attacks etc which hopefully will stop

I think the split will work itself out one way or other. If it does bring in posters who didn't feel confident in posting before then that'll be a good thing. If not it might all just fizzle out. But it's good to see that clarification from MNHQ that it's separation by topic not by point of view, and that no poster has a right not to have their viewpoint challenged.

This highlights, to me, the inordinate amount of time feminists have to spend on defending our single-sex rights. It’s such a waste of women's time and energy. It’s outrageous that our rights are being casually given away. But if we don’t hold the line with everything we’ve got, we will go on losing rights that no one even questioned until recently.

It reminds me of the period in the 1970s when every couple of years some MP tried to push an anti-abortion bill through parliament. Everything else got sidelined in the battle to keep abortion legal and available.

There were so many more constructive things we want to get on with, to make further progress. But instead we have to spend time struggling against being dragged backwards.

@MotherOffCod

I really recommend being more temperate in your language.

And do please read my OP & Michael's reply.

@Pumperthepumper - exactly the opposite!

Seriously, what did I say that would make you think I want to talk about trans issues!

The point is at this moment in time some trans activists are directly attacking women's rights. That is why there are a lot of threads.

We are all talking about women's rights, but some women seem to want to pretend we are not.

Or that they are the "nice" feminists that dont associate with women who get angry.

This division makes no sense. It reflects nobody.

@mnhq haven't even bothered to explain why they did it

they did it behind their back

and they continue to not apply their division correctly.

If I believed in conspiracy theories I would say this is a move by anti feminists who want to make it look like there is a split between equal rights issues and women's sex based rights being attacked by men who claim they are women.

Who are the women who aren't able to join up the dots.

It is all about women's rights.

It actually made more sense when there was a separate board for theory or whatever it is.

this division is in no one interests but men's.

I really recommend being more temperate in your language.

Why? What was wrong with it?

they did it behind their back
Really? I was reading multiple consultations.

Mumsnet isnt a one topic forum

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

This highlights, to me, the inordinate amount of time feminists have to spend on defending our single-sex rights. It’s such a waste of women's time and energy. It’s outrageous that our rights are being casually given away. But if we don’t hold the line with everything we’ve got, we will go on losing rights that no one even questioned until recently.

It reminds me of the period in the 1970s when every couple of years some MP tried to push an anti-abortion bill through parliament. Everything else got sidelined in the battle to keep abortion legal and available.

There were so many more constructive things we want to get on with, to make further progress. But instead we have to spend time struggling against being dragged backwards.

That is really insightful, thank you for sharing. I wasn't born until the 70s so having this longer view of women's fight for rights is really important to be aware of. Thank you to you and the women who keep on fighting.

Hi @MichaelMumsnet I’ve seen quite a few people commenting on how frustrating it is to go between the two new sections. Is it possible to have a one click step, which allows you to go between the two feminism sections?

I used to spend most of my time just in Feminism chat and was able to access all the threads. Now it’s clumsy to navigate between the two sections.

Oh yes a switch between the two would be helpful!

It's a ;its;e annoying having to view two boards when I'm interested in all the topics. If there was a 'view all' option I'd have no complaints.

How about it MN?

• It's a little

sorry

Or better still just have one thread called feminism.

And as in the real world we can pick and choose what we read and who we talk to.

I'd still like the ability to block or mute posters.

I had the original (real) FWR bookmarked and my link now goes to Feminism: sex and gender. I don’t often post, and rarely start threads but if I do I will be starting them in that bookmarked link as for me sex is impossible to separate from my feminism. It’s the first place I look on Mumsnet and then I go look in active threads. I’m not trying myself in knots trying to switch between that and a fluffy chat section.

@Pumperthepumper

My understanding is: if you want to talk about trans people, head over to the gender debate board. If you want to talk about any other aspect of feminism, post in feminist chat.

The way to get round this is to call the gender debate board ‘trans issues’, which mumsnet suggested and were shot down. But that’s it in a nutshell.

And my understanding is that if you want to talk about adult human females, you're banished to the sex and gender board.