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Feminism: chat

How to challenge mixed changing at local pool

164 replies

SomeOriginalUserName · 16/06/2021 17:26

I usually lurk & learn but can't find anything with a search, so can anyone help?

My local pool, owned by the council but signed over to Everyone Active to run, has used the Covid19 situation as an excuse to replace single-sex changing with mixed changing areas.

They claim this is to comply with one direction flow requirements - the separate areas are on either side of a central corridor. Entry is now on the left of the corridor, the same side the men's area is on, and this is now a mixed area. The women's area is on the right and, inexplicably, is completely closed off: People exit on that side so no one can use it. Real nonsense.

I've suggested separate times for male & female, or finding another area somewhere else in the large centre for a second change area, but the male manager has completely dismissed me.

I've cited the Equality Act and single-sex provision. Ignored.

I've countered his 'but there are cubicles' argument by explaining that the 2 foot gap at the top and bottom of the changing stalls and shower stalls are nowhere near offering security and privacy, but he's dismissed me. He's made some references to these meeting standards for Swim England and Sport England?!? And when I've referred him to figures on sexual assaults in leisure centres and info on up-skirting and men shoving cameras under gaps to take photos, he's gone on about gaps being necessary to clean!

And he really isn't interested when I point out that failure to provide safe, private single-sex facilities is exactly why women and girls stop doing sport - because we're effectively shut out.

I understand the guidance about coming ready to swim: I had my costume on under my clothes. But I still need a safe, private area away from men to undress, check my tampon, use the loos, and to shower and change afterwards - I'm not going to put my clothes on over a wet costume and get the bus home before being able to wash out the dirt and chemicals of the pool.

And the excuses he's given for not providing this just don't cut it.

They won't put the info about removing single-sex changing on the website tho - afraid of the publicity I suppose - so women are paying and booking swim sessions only to have to turn around and leave when they discover the situation. I'm not the only one whose complained, but I'm not sure what to do next.

I've emailed the local council, since they own the site and Everyone Active has claimed they're okay with the mixed changing.

And I'm going to write to head office to ask why they think they can ignore the Equality Act, dismiss women's concerns and bar them from the pool unless they're willing to compromise their safety.

Anything else I can do?

Everyone Active have form for failing to provide single-sex facilities in other centres they run and I really don't want to see this happening at my local pool.

(GGGrrrr - waiting all year for the pool to re-open and now the hottest summer ever and I can't swim unless I agree to put myself in an unsafe situation. Angry)

OP posts:
aiwblam · 17/06/2021 19:00

Put your swimwear on at home, put a towelling dress/hoody and towelling shorts on. Strip them off in the changing rooms, no need for cubicle. When finished dress in the towelling clothes, without removing your swimwear. This is what I had to do to get my DS (asd) in the pool once he was over the age where he could go in the female changing with me.

FierceBarrie · 17/06/2021 19:07

@aiwblam

Put your swimwear on at home, put a towelling dress/hoody and towelling shorts on. Strip them off in the changing rooms, no need for cubicle. When finished dress in the towelling clothes, without removing your swimwear. This is what I had to do to get my DS (asd) in the pool once he was over the age where he could go in the female changing with me.
That is so not a solution.

So men get free reign in the dressing rooms, while women have to go without adequate facilities, changing under a towel. How is that fair?

I’m not in the UK, and have never, ever come across mixed changing facilities.

It’s not OK or acceptable.

Chicchicchicchiclana · 17/06/2021 19:13

Why can't councils provide single sex changing and mixed sex changing? It seems such a small ask. I went to a new pool in my area. No sex segregated changing. First thing I saw was a stark bollock naked man wandering about. Never went back.

ChaToilLeam · 17/06/2021 19:25

I would NOT be happy to share changing facilities with men. Absolutely not. Agree wholeheartedly with you OP.

Lotsofpots · 17/06/2021 19:33

I never had an issue with mixed changing rooms. Just wasn't bothered. I was then filmed under the gap of a cubicle while showering after using the gym. It was horrendous and despite a fantastic response from the police and leisure centre, I've never been back.

I will not use mixed changing rooms again. I haven't been swimming or to the gym as a result. Solidarity in your fight OP. We need women like you fighting for our safety.

sarvangasana · 17/06/2021 20:16

My local leisure centre was taken over by Everyone Active in Dec 2019 and the single sex changing rooms became mixed sex with cubicles open at the top and bottom. I very rarely swim but I used the other facilities there and my teenage daughter had started swimming there regularly on her own. They had also removed the dry single sex changing rooms in the refurbishment - had to get changed for the gym in the toilet.

I arranged a meeting with the duty manager to explain my concerns, he was useless - company policy to have mixed sex. Gave me the name of the local area manager whom I emailed with lots of information and case studies (FPFW website and local newspaper articles), got nowhere, it was all 'industry standard', used 'gender' a lot, said their safeguarding was ok with local police (as I raised this issue) - local police are stonewalled to the eyeballs.

I then raised with CEO etc of Everyone Active who all totally ignored my emails.

Covid then hit, I cancelled my membership as they were totally crap about everything, they delayed over that as well, and we haven't been back since. I go to a different gym, but there is no other pool for swimming so my daughter hasn't been able to go.

I would be interested to know if you get anywhere with Everyone Active as they seem to be making all of their centres mixed sex now.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/06/2021 20:21

@swapsicles

Mixed changing rooms are the norm in many places. I'm sure the very very vast majority of men won't contorting themselves to peer into your cubicle, maybe you could use the disabled or family changing, sometimes they are rooms rather than cubicles.
Does it need to be the very very vast majority of men?

This case was heard just last month.

extract

A Peeping Tom left a 15-year-old swimmer terrified of getting changed when he used a mobile phone to film her over the top of a cubicle.

Edward Smith locked himself in a neighbouring cubicle in the mixed gender changing area as a group of swimmers aged ten to 17 were ending a training session.

He waited for the swimmers to get out and then held his hand up to take photos of the naked girl, who screamed in horror when she spotted his phone.

Smith fled the changing room at the Exe Valley Leisure Centre in Tiverton but police released a grainy CCTV image which led to the 40-year-old farmer being identified and arrested.

Analysts then found images on his phone and computer which proved he had done the same thing at the same swimming pool twice before.

A victim impact statement from the 15-year-old girl said that swimming used to be her ‘happy place’ but she is now so scared that she insists on having friends in both neighbouring cubicles whenever she changes.

www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/peeping-tom-left-girl-swimmer-scared-changing-room-7988374

OhHolyJesus · 17/06/2021 20:30

It's not really Everyone active at all is it?

TheRebelle · 17/06/2021 20:35

We’ve got a mixed sex changing room at our local pool, it’s all cubicles and it’s open to the pool and reception so I always felt safe, until a man started showering fully naked in the poolside showers for all to see and when I alerted staff they giggled and shrugged their shoulders and I had to insist they did something.

Tobermorie · 17/06/2021 20:41

If it’s a fully open plan public changing area with private cubicles and no group changing then that’s fairly common and has been for years. But if it’s an enclosed room that’s a different matter.

Bobbybobbins · 17/06/2021 20:53

We are lucky to have some leisure centres locally with mixed sex and some with single sex so people can choose which they feel comfortable with.

For my family the mixed sex changing is the only option as I have two disabled sons who are too old to use the female changing room but I can totally appreciate the benefits of single sex.

saltncheese · 18/06/2021 14:25

Mixed changing rooms are just a golden ticket for all the (usually male) perverts to pray on young people and women.

Why are we being left so vulnerable?

Every woman and girl over the age of 10 understand that being in a area with unsupervised unknown men leaves us open to sexual advances/contact etc.

It concerns me we will have a generation of women (and their children) opting out of activities like swimming at a time when we all understand the benefits of exercise.

MargaritaPie · 18/06/2021 16:00

I've been to Center Parcs which has mixed changing rooms, but since the cubicles you actually undress in are floor-to-ceiling with locks, what's the problem?

TheRebelle · 18/06/2021 16:03

@MargaritaPie people pay quite a lot to go to Centre Parcs and generally with their family so there’s not quite the same opportunistic type of person hanging around who might be willing to pay £4 to get into the local pool changing rooms and stick their camera under the door.

SomeOriginalUserName · 18/06/2021 20:12

@sarvangasana

My local leisure centre was taken over by Everyone Active in Dec 2019 and the single sex changing rooms became mixed sex with cubicles open at the top and bottom. I very rarely swim but I used the other facilities there and my teenage daughter had started swimming there regularly on her own. They had also removed the dry single sex changing rooms in the refurbishment - had to get changed for the gym in the toilet.

I arranged a meeting with the duty manager to explain my concerns, he was useless - company policy to have mixed sex. Gave me the name of the local area manager whom I emailed with lots of information and case studies (FPFW website and local newspaper articles), got nowhere, it was all 'industry standard', used 'gender' a lot, said their safeguarding was ok with local police (as I raised this issue) - local police are stonewalled to the eyeballs.

I then raised with CEO etc of Everyone Active who all totally ignored my emails.

Covid then hit, I cancelled my membership as they were totally crap about everything, they delayed over that as well, and we haven't been back since. I go to a different gym, but there is no other pool for swimming so my daughter hasn't been able to go.

I would be interested to know if you get anywhere with Everyone Active as they seem to be making all of their centres mixed sex now.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll mention it when I speak to people.

Yes, Everyone Active seem to prefer mixed changing. Probably easier and / or cheaper for them somewhere along the line.

And I was completely stonewalled by their (male) manager.

I am going to write to head office - will postback if they do reply.

But I'm pursuing it with the council.

The leisure centre is still owned by the council and EA have gotten £hundreds of thousands from the council to subsidise maintenance and such. Which of course comes from council tax.

So far, I got an initial positive response from one councillor but since I asked her for a meeting, I've not heard back. And the male councillor I emailed didn't reply at all.

And I've arranged a telephone call with the Equality officer - another woman. (Sorry, it's hard not to see this as a male-female thing.)

And I've sent a letter to the local paper, will wait to see if it's posted or if there's any response.

OP posts:
SomeOriginalUserName · 18/06/2021 20:19

Thanks @PurgatoryOfPotholes - more evidence I can use to make the case.

But how awful for those poor girls. They shouldn't be a cautionary tale in someone else's fight to protect our rights.

It's not the 999 decent people who we need to safeguard against - it's the one deviant who will ruin a girls life for his own pleasure.

Provision of equal access facilities means ensuring they are accessible for everyone, not just the people who don't have a problem - yet. (Too many instances of people saying 'I was fine until.." There shouldn't have to be an until.

OP posts:
SomeOriginalUserName · 18/06/2021 20:25

@MargaritaPie

I've been to Center Parcs which has mixed changing rooms, but since the cubicles you actually undress in are floor-to-ceiling with locks, what's the problem?
Sure - if there were wall to ceiling, sealed cubicles that offered privacy and protection, there might be a better case for mixed changing.

But the changing areas & the showers I'm talking about have gaps of 1.5-2 feet at the bottom, and several feet between top of the partition and the ceiling. They offer no protection and limited privacy.

They're also pretty flimsy plywood with flimsy latches. If they were cement / brick built, with secure locks, again there might be a case.

But there's still issues of people lurking, dark corners, flashing. Nah, not for me!

(And the poster who said I should wear towels / towelling clothes to the pool and then wear my wet costume home... Really?

Because that's a more viable option than the management making proper provision to ensure everyone has equal access to the facilities?

Sure, I'll suggest to them that they should go back to single-sex for women and just not have anything for men, who can wear towelling clothes to & from the pool.

I'll let you know how they respond!)

OP posts:
Ohpulltheotherone · 18/06/2021 20:27

I’m not sure if you’ve said or not OP but if they have Twitter and Facebook make sure you get on their pages and leave the appropriate reviews.
You don’t have to be defamatory of course, you can simply issue a “warning / heads up” to anyone wanting to use the pool that the changing rooms are not as described on the website.

It’s all about money, it’s as simple as that.
It’s cost based - cheaper to have one big room to clean and maintain than several.

I pay for a private gym (a very nice one) and it has single sex changing (you can take children of opp sex up to age 8 in these) and then it also has a family change area too for those who want it -that of course is mixed changing for mums and dads but it’s private cubicles with shower and change area.

I’m lucky of course that I can pay for this, I wouldn’t go to a pool where it was mixed change, not a chance in hell.

I hope you get some traction, this makes me so sad and angry, I bet the manager would feel bloody different if some dirty bugger flashed his penis to his daughter or wife in a communal area.

Ohpulltheotherone · 18/06/2021 20:36

Why do some women think just because they feel okay / safe in these environments that every other woman should just suck it up?

Would you advise your 80 year old mother to just go home in her wet costume? Or be happy that your 14 year old daughter and her friends have to change out of their clothes behind doors with gaps in them? With random men of all ages just casually wandering about outside of that door.

Why is this OK to put cost above comfort, security and safety?

Why do we have to ignore that men make up the vast majority of sexual offences and violence against women.

Why can’t they just provide separate or secure mixed spaces????

I don’t understand why not? If you go to a private gym it’s usually the case so it must be cost.

Phineyj · 18/06/2021 20:59

I belong to a similar private chain to the poster above. Not only is the changing as she describes, but they haven't had to introduce booking for swimming and the changing rooms and showers have been accessible throughout 2020 and 2021 (lockdowns excepted) whereas our local Mytime run pools didn't even manage to open July-Nov last year, our Better (haha) facility is still shut and all Mytime swimming is 'arrive beach ready' with baffling one way systems that have been retrofitted to buildings that aren't suitable.

It is about money, largely, but women and girls suffer more from this sort of penny pinching and there's some thoughtlessness too.

randomsabreuse · 18/06/2021 21:21

Been forced to travel in wet swimming kit by Covid restrictions, it's not that horrendous in summer. Been a fact of life for a while and worth it to get some swimming in...

SomeOriginalUserName · 18/06/2021 21:26

@Ohpulltheotherone

I’m not sure if you’ve said or not OP but if they have Twitter and Facebook make sure you get on their pages and leave the appropriate reviews. You don’t have to be defamatory of course, you can simply issue a “warning / heads up” to anyone wanting to use the pool that the changing rooms are not as described on the website.

It’s all about money, it’s as simple as that.
It’s cost based - cheaper to have one big room to clean and maintain than several.

I pay for a private gym (a very nice one) and it has single sex changing (you can take children of opp sex up to age 8 in these) and then it also has a family change area too for those who want it -that of course is mixed changing for mums and dads but it’s private cubicles with shower and change area.

I’m lucky of course that I can pay for this, I wouldn’t go to a pool where it was mixed change, not a chance in hell.

I hope you get some traction, this makes me so sad and angry, I bet the manager would feel bloody different if some dirty bugger flashed his penis to his daughter or wife in a communal area.

I'm not on Twitter, but I might see if someone else can post.

This is one of the first things I raised, while I was at the pool and still a bit shocked (before I got angry!) - if the info had been on the website, I wouldn't have booked, paid, or travelled to the pool.

But they've completely refused so far to put the info on the website, and sent me looooong lists of all the stuff that is on the website.

The fact they won't publicly announce the change makes me suspicious.

BTW - I did find a similar thread about this form a couple years back - I was surprised when I couldn't, but the thread refers to mixed gender, not mixed sex:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3742276-Mixed-gender-Swimming-Pool-Changing-Rooms

OP posts:
ExConstance · 21/06/2021 15:30

Our local Everyone Active leisure centre has mixed changing with cubicles. I've never thought anything of it, there are always plenty of people about and the gaps at the top and bottom of the doors are not that big. this arrangement has been in place for many years and although there are often complaints about facilities at the leisure centre in general on the users forum I've never seen this issue raised.
It doesn't bother me at all.

334bu · 21/06/2021 15:33

Our local Everyone Active leisure centre has mixed changing with cubicles. I've never thought anything of it, there are always plenty of people about and the gaps at the top and bottom of the doors are not that big. this arrangement has been in place for many years and although there are often complaints about facilities at the leisure centre in general on the users forum I've never seen this issue raised.
It doesn't bother me at all.

Might be interesting to find out how many incidences of voyeurism have occurred and how often they sweep for hidden cameras.

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