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Flow neuroscience- does it work? Anxiety and Depression.

53 replies

speakout · 15/11/2023 20:47

This device has popped up in my feed, not sure what to think I can't find many reviews and not sure if the ones I have read are non biased.

It seems a headseat with pads on the forehead, to be worn daily for 30 minutes, activated via a phone app to deliver a very mild electric current.
It's not cheap- £400 for the kit.
Is this a scam? Does it work?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
ManchesterLu · 15/11/2023 23:24

I wouldn't think any kind of device that delivers electricity to the brain without medical supervision would be advisable, but I'm old fashioned like that..

Buttonmoonier · 15/11/2023 23:33

I've used it and it works. It has been piloted by the NHS and is medically approved. They have a 30 day money back guarantee if it doesn't work for you.

You do look a bit weird sitting there with it on your head but I just use it in front of the TV and no one can see me.

I can't take SSRIs so thought I would take a chance on this. It doesn't work for everyone but there's a Facebook group you can join and lots of users comment on there so you can get a feel for it. Antidepressants without any side effects is a pretty good deal if you ask me.

pinguins · 15/11/2023 23:44

No don't do it. Use the money to pay for an actual qualified therapist who is BACP qualified (don't get someone from one of the dodgy self-regulating self-defined acronyms that isn't a real governing body with proper entry requirements and training expectations of therapists).

The "mental health" industry is now a billion dollar industry with so many fakes, frauds, charlatans and snake oil salespeople. If these sort of things actually worked, don't you think there would be scientific studies and it would be all over the national news not just a puff piece in the occasional lifestyle mag?

Review manipulation is a real issue at the best of times but with expensive products, they can do all sorts to encourage positive reviews because so much money is at stake if they pull it off. You have selection bias that the people writing the reviews have been prompted by Amazon and people who are still depressed are likely to feel apathetic and less motivated. You have bias that Trustpilot is very hot on taking down people's genuine reviews if companies complain to them enough.

You have bias that some people will have received a free sample or heavily discounted in exchange for a review, and these people will not have necessarily have been anxious/depressed in the first place, but they will report all sorts because they got a free expensive product that they can resell on eBay or elsewhere once they've upheld their end of the bargain by writing a glowing review. You have bias that people want it to work because they've just spent a huge amount of money on something in sheer desperation that it might work.

What people are actually doing is giving themself a mild electrical shock which makes them think something is happening. This device is just a mass-produced transcranial current stimulation device and we've known for years the evidence doesn't really support their use.

Even NICE has stated this should only be used by a qualified professional and that they must report this use to their clinical governance leads. Here are their list of side-effects, including risk of mania/hypomania which is a significant potential side effect for anything being done outside of clinical supervision: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ipg530/chapter/5-Safety"
The NICE guidelines also state that the results are "inconsistent" and that a lot more clinical research would be needed before they could make any recommendations compared to the wide range of other treatments for depression/anxiety.

They are leaning heavily on the words "medically approved" which is actually a very dark grey area (almost illegal, in fact) under the ASA because it is misleading customers. This doesn't mean it's approved by doctors as a good treatment for mental illness. It means that the device has been tested as safe and hasn't caused any serious injuries so has been given permission to be imported/sold in the UK and EU and that the manufacturer claims it is a medical device. The MHRA don't check if the device does what it says it will do, they rely on the manufacturer's claims, the MHRA only ensure that it doesn't cause any significant harm. This is a direct quote from the ASA about what can/can't be said about "medical devices": "Because the onus is on the manufacturer to comply with the Regulations, manufacturers should not state or imply that their device has been “approved” or “certified” by the MHRA."

Real qualified psychiatrists have been playing with electricity around sufferers of mental illnesses for over 100 years. Read into the gruesome history if you want to horrify yourself with all the things they have done. Really, if there were any benefits to this at all beyond placebo, psychiatrists in hospitals would be queueing up to use these instead of having to book repeated slots in a theatre and with an anaesthetist (very expensive) to do a course of ECT on people with treatment resistant suicidality.

Please value your health and your mental health and get treatment from a qualified professional rather than spending a big sum of money on something like this. I say this as someone who has been stung by too many charlatans in the mental health sphere.

5 Safety | Transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) for depression | Guidance | NICE

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ipg530/chapter/5-Safety%22

pinguins · 16/11/2023 00:00

Buttonmoonier · 15/11/2023 23:33

I've used it and it works. It has been piloted by the NHS and is medically approved. They have a 30 day money back guarantee if it doesn't work for you.

You do look a bit weird sitting there with it on your head but I just use it in front of the TV and no one can see me.

I can't take SSRIs so thought I would take a chance on this. It doesn't work for everyone but there's a Facebook group you can join and lots of users comment on there so you can get a feel for it. Antidepressants without any side effects is a pretty good deal if you ask me.

Unfortunately most of what you have said (personal experience aside) is untrue. I also notice you are using an awful lot of direct quotes from the product description in your post. I have a lot of questions based on inconsistencies and inaccuracies in your post:

What use is a 30 day money back guarantee when the company claims it needs 6 weeks to work?

Why can't you take SSRIs? If it is due to bipolar disorder, were you aware of the significant risk of mania and hypomania found in clinical trials of the device? How do you feel that the company said "no side effects" when there were? Does that sound like a reputable and trustworthy thing to do?

How can you say "no side effects" when there is a massive long list of them on the NICE website (including mania/hypomania which are life-threatening to those of us with bipolar)?

Why did you engage in using this item without researching it properly and why are you irresponsibly saying other people should too, and that they should rely on anecdotal evidence from a Facebook group rather than the actual clinical trials that have already been done and shown no significant efficacy and a raft of potential issues?

How would you feel if someone blindly took your advice then died either because their depression worsened and they hadn't sought treatment from a qualified registered professional, or from one of the side effects you claim don't exist because that's what the company said and you uncritically took it at its face value instead of doing some research?

Buttonmoonier · 16/11/2023 00:15

Why so hyperbolic? No one is going to die from using it!

The NICE article you quote is dated 2015. Flow received regulatory approval in 2019. The NHS has already done a successful pilot and is now doing more. Perhaps you should read a more up to date scientific paper on it eg https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=128822

I did do my research. My wording is not from the product page. I have been using it for 4 weeks and have seen a significant reduction in depression. It's none of your business why I can't take SSRIs but i do not have bipolar disorder. Flow is not approved for people with bipolar disorder anyway.

The NHS is doing another pilot on it at the moment. https://www.londondaily.news/nhs-patients-to-use-flow-neuroscience-to-treat-depression-differently/

I'm not sure what you have against Flow but your posts read very oddly. I've had many years of counselling but found that I needed SSRIs as well. Now that I can't take them I was looking for something else and found this. I've been using it for 4 weeks and found it just as good as SSRIs so far, with no side effects. I would recommend it to anyone.

NHS patients to use Flow Neuroscience to treat depression differently

General Practice Alliance (GPA) to use Flow devices to help patients better cope with their depression Flow Neuroscience, the at-home depression treatment co

https://www.londondaily.news/nhs-patients-to-use-flow-neuroscience-to-treat-depression-differently

speakout · 16/11/2023 07:57

I really appreciate all this information.

The device sounds interesting, but for some reason is piquing my spidey senses.

I have fund all those review NotReadyForThisYet, but would like to dig deeper.

I keep seeing the mention of "NHS approved"- all seem to link back to that one article in the londondailynews web site.
Nothing published by NHS, but the NICE link is helpful.

I am glad for those using and finding benefit. I have a loved one who can't take SSRIs.

My concerns are twofold- one is that it may not work - and is expensive.

Nothing about the technology is terribly novel, and as you say pinguins scientists have been studying the brain in relation to electricity for a long time. If this device is effective why don't the NHS use it?

My second concern is that it may do harm.

Buttonmoonier
Why so hyperbolic? No one is going to die from using it!

But they may. My loved one regularly has episodes of feeling suicidal, and mania too. Can you say for sure he will be safe when using this device?

I would like to learn more, but can't shake off this Ismellarat feeling.

OP posts:
EmmaEmerald · 16/11/2023 09:23

Hi speakout I'm guessing you're asking on behalf of someone

the reviews are an issue - all stylistically the same.

Regardless, I've had depression and anxiety for decades and have seen many fads come and go. Being part of an NHS pilot is meaningless as it just means a mutual profit.

Like shining light into ears for SAD - this really was a thing about 10 years ago - I suspect it's a fad. If a person can get on a trial, maybe, but paying £400 doesn't seem great, though it looks like you can get money back.

In principle, I can see why it would work and I did have a neighbour mention it to me as I've had a lot of issues with meds recently. But it's definitely not free of side effects.

edit - sorry, just saw your second post

I'm going to try CBD oil, have some on order, is that worth a go?

Eyesopenwideawake · 16/11/2023 09:32

Like most things, if you believe it will work it probably will.

What therapy have you tried to tackle the root cause of your anxiety/depression?

Buttonmoonier · 16/11/2023 10:43

Have a look at the Facebook page. These are real people who use it and it has worked for them. There are also people who found it didn't help and sell their units second hand.

All I can tell you is that from my own perspective it has made a massive difference. The same as SSRIs and no side effects. Look at the most recent scientific study which I posted above.

Of course if someone is suicidal no one can say that they are "safe" using the device if by that you mean they are guaranteed not to commit suicide. But they are "safe" in that the only side effects are tingling and itchy feeling on the skin. It doesn't kill people.

Buttonmoonier · 16/11/2023 10:48

Just noticed you mentioned mania. I think it is not approved or recommended for bipolar/mania.

Rodders92 · 16/11/2023 10:56

I have been using the device for 4 weeks now, it is being piloted by the NHS in some areas in primary care practices, the aim of the device is to stimulate neural pathways in the frontal cortex which have been shown to have reduced activity on MRI scan of depressed people.

There is another brain stimulation technique called rtms which is also used by the NHS but is only available on the NHS for people who are treatment resistant , whereas flow is in places available as first line treatment.

My personal experience has been positive so far, if you have anxiety associated with depression it can increase the anxiety initially but the thing I noticed very quickly was a reduction in negative intrusive thoughts.

There is a lot of research looking at tdcs as a technique looking at other devices as well not just the flow , my experience of the Flow company is also very positive they are very professional and will respond to queries you have via email.

Use of the device is also combined with some other techniques to help like CBT exercises, meditation videos etc via the app.

One study showed that the combination of Flow with sertraline had the greatest benefit , but Flow alone and sertraline alone all performed better than placebo/ sham tdcs.

There is an active Flow Neuroscience Community on Facebook with a number of people who have already used the device long term so you could join the group and ask further questions on there.

The facebook page is also a good place if you want to try and pick up a device second hand.

Good luck

hopsalong · 19/11/2023 09:16

I rented one for a while (while already taking various medications but having persistent depressive symptoms in 2021) and I rate it highly. If you use it every day it is outstandingly effective. If I could use it every day I doubt I would need to take any medication.

The problem is that the stupid app forces you gradually to wean off it after an initial 2-week daily or near-daily burst. Using it only two or three times a week made no difference to me. You're allowed to reset it after some period of time of mild use, and go back to the initial schedule. So in the end I did three rounds and felt there was little point in feeling so much better only to have the depression slowly creep in again. I exchanged numerous emails with the company on this topic, because it really seemed cruel to flirt with significantly improving someone's depression only to insist it returned. As others have said, most people would not spend the money on this (pads are very expensive and a real faff) or take the risk without severe and apparently intractable depression.

Buttonmoonier · 19/11/2023 10:59

People on the Facebook group have said that you can pay £60 a year to an affiliated company and they can change the schedule so you can use it up to 5 times a week I think. Seems like they did the research on the original settings of using it 5 times a week for 3 weeks then twice a week so that is what they offer automatically. But you can have a remote appointment to change the schedule.

Rodders92 · 19/11/2023 11:21

hopsalong · 19/11/2023 09:16

I rented one for a while (while already taking various medications but having persistent depressive symptoms in 2021) and I rate it highly. If you use it every day it is outstandingly effective. If I could use it every day I doubt I would need to take any medication.

The problem is that the stupid app forces you gradually to wean off it after an initial 2-week daily or near-daily burst. Using it only two or three times a week made no difference to me. You're allowed to reset it after some period of time of mild use, and go back to the initial schedule. So in the end I did three rounds and felt there was little point in feeling so much better only to have the depression slowly creep in again. I exchanged numerous emails with the company on this topic, because it really seemed cruel to flirt with significantly improving someone's depression only to insist it returned. As others have said, most people would not spend the money on this (pads are very expensive and a real faff) or take the risk without severe and apparently intractable depression.

You can also set up more than one user account with different email addresses if you wish to use more frequently but the official way is by linking to one of their affiliated clinics to tweak your schedule.

hopsalong · 20/11/2023 06:56

Thank you both -- that's very helpful. Am currently not suffering with depression (still on same antidepressants) but January is always a difficult month and will bear this in mind.

Yellowishes · 03/12/2023 11:36

Since when can people with bipolar not take SSRIs?
They can (and very many do) take them under clinical monitoring.
SSRIs also carry a very significant risk of mania in people with bipolar disorder.

I think the problem with this device is it's available independent of regulated clinical settings.

Fatbetty72 · 22/12/2023 10:52

I have bipolar and have used the Flow for the last six months as part of an NHS clinical trial. It has worked really well for me and I haven't had a bad depressive episode since starting with it and no mania either. Just a lifted mood. I highly recommend it.

Rodders92 · 23/12/2023 11:34

Fatbetty72 · 22/12/2023 10:52

I have bipolar and have used the Flow for the last six months as part of an NHS clinical trial. It has worked really well for me and I haven't had a bad depressive episode since starting with it and no mania either. Just a lifted mood. I highly recommend it.

Are you going to be using it as an ongoing treatment after the trial finishes , pleased it has worked so well for you

Fatbetty72 · 01/01/2024 16:56

Yes. I do it twice a week as maintenance.

MyLadyTheKingsMother · 01/01/2024 17:07

My husband has had chronic depression for decades. The last two years have been some of the very worst I have seen for him.

He is on the highest dose of ssri he can take and has been for a long time. He didn't want to change his medication as he has had bad experiences in the past with trying new ones.

We rented a headset as an attempt at trying something different. I am frankly amazed at the results and I don't care one bit if it's a placebo effect.

He is so much happier, his libido is back with a vengeance and he has light in his eyes again.

I tell everyone I know about our first hand experience because I believe this could save countless people a year.

Icannoteven · 03/03/2024 20:15

I’ve been using this for about 10 days now and it seems to working for me so far. The strangest most unexpected thing was the way I have been thinking about a traumatic event that happened to me, since using the headset.

There was an event that happened to me in childhood that I found incredibly traumatic and shameful. I have thought about it, felt it and experienced it every day of my life since. I don’t know if it is a coincidence or not but a few days after using the headset I had a sudden shift in the way I think and feel about this event. It’s like I have began to process it finally and am no longer stuck IN it, if that makes sense?

This was a completely unexpected side effect of using flow - I am trialling the device after quiting Sertraline due to annoying side effects (weight gain and night sweats) and really just thought it would hold off my depression. I had absolutely no hope that this would resolve the event
(or that anything would ever) so it’s been quite the surprise.

I would be interested to find out if anyone else has experienced sudden, significant improvement of trauma symptoms?

At the moment I am renting the device. I’m not sure if I will buy the flow or buy a different make of machine. I do not like that the pads are not reusable and the frequency of use is controlled by someone else. I do like the app that comes with the headset and takes you through a behaviour activation course. This has been fantastic (except for the section on mindfulness, which I actually find detrimental to my MH)

Buttonmoonier · 03/03/2024 21:58

I hate mindfulness too! I have health anxiety and it makes me focus too much on my body and bodily sensations which sends me into an anxiety spiral. I just watch TV while I'm using it.

I've been using this since September/October I think and am now scoring as having minimal depression. I feel completely different.

In relation to the pads. I reuse them. On the Facebook group someone posted a link to a saline solution you can buy on Amazon really cheaply. I store a few pads in a zip lock bag with some of the saline solution in. I've still not used up the original box of pads that came with the set.

I had a bit of a dip when going from 5 times a week to 2 times a week but held on and it stabilised. You can also contact a clinic to get them to reset it to 5 times a week for £60 a year. I haven't tried this but people on the Facebook group seemed to think it was easy enough.

SoniyaJonas · 04/03/2024 08:12

Before investing in such a device, it's crucial to conduct thorough research and consider seeking unbiased reviews from reputable sources. Additionally, consulting with healthcare professionals or experts in the field can provide valuable insights into the effectiveness and safety of the device. Keep in mind that while some innovative technologies may offer promising results, it's essential to approach with caution and prioritize your health and well-being above all else.