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Original poster

Flow neuroscience- does it work? Anxiety and Depression.

53 replies

speakout · 15/11/2023 20:47

This device has popped up in my feed, not sure what to think I can't find many reviews and not sure if the ones I have read are non biased.

It seems a headseat with pads on the forehead, to be worn daily for 30 minutes, activated via a phone app to deliver a very mild electric current.
It's not cheap- £400 for the kit.
Is this a scam? Does it work?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SoniyaJonas · 04/03/2024 08:14

It's important to acknowledge your emotions and allow yourself to feel sad; suppressing them may only prolong your healing process. Remember, it's okay not to be okay, and seeking support from loved ones or a professional can provide additional strength during this challenging period. You're not alone, and reaching out for help is a courageous step towards healing and finding inner peace.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/03/2024 08:21

Reminds me of a dusty black box that my hairdresser brought out decades ago, claiming that the mild electrical current it delivered was a treatment for my alopecia. Felt kind of nice. Zero effect.
I guess there must be something behind this new gizmo, since there is an NHS-approved treatment associated with it. But never underestimate the power of consumer capitalism to string us along with bastardised, overstated, misapplied simulacra of anything vaguely, tentatively, hypothetically associated with some wellbeing claim or other.

Icannoteven · 04/03/2024 21:50

Buttonmoonier · 03/03/2024 21:58

I hate mindfulness too! I have health anxiety and it makes me focus too much on my body and bodily sensations which sends me into an anxiety spiral. I just watch TV while I'm using it.

I've been using this since September/October I think and am now scoring as having minimal depression. I feel completely different.

In relation to the pads. I reuse them. On the Facebook group someone posted a link to a saline solution you can buy on Amazon really cheaply. I store a few pads in a zip lock bag with some of the saline solution in. I've still not used up the original box of pads that came with the set.

I had a bit of a dip when going from 5 times a week to 2 times a week but held on and it stabilised. You can also contact a clinic to get them to reset it to 5 times a week for £60 a year. I haven't tried this but people on the Facebook group seemed to think it was easy enough.

oh, that’s good info about the pads. Thanks

JaneyGunn85 · 22/03/2024 10:24

Hi, there is some positive research out there it seems. It's certainly gaining in popularity. You can return it for a full refund within 30 days if you aren't feeling any benefit.

BrickOtter · 12/08/2024 15:47

I have had a flow headset since October last year and now use it 2-3 times a week. There is a very active user group on facebook “Flow Neuroscience Community” The majority of users on the group report a positive effect but as the causes of depression are multi factorial it doesn’t work for everyone. A lot of people join the facebook group before buying or renting the headset

Redone53 · 17/10/2024 14:20

pinguins · 15/11/2023 23:44

No don't do it. Use the money to pay for an actual qualified therapist who is BACP qualified (don't get someone from one of the dodgy self-regulating self-defined acronyms that isn't a real governing body with proper entry requirements and training expectations of therapists).

The "mental health" industry is now a billion dollar industry with so many fakes, frauds, charlatans and snake oil salespeople. If these sort of things actually worked, don't you think there would be scientific studies and it would be all over the national news not just a puff piece in the occasional lifestyle mag?

Review manipulation is a real issue at the best of times but with expensive products, they can do all sorts to encourage positive reviews because so much money is at stake if they pull it off. You have selection bias that the people writing the reviews have been prompted by Amazon and people who are still depressed are likely to feel apathetic and less motivated. You have bias that Trustpilot is very hot on taking down people's genuine reviews if companies complain to them enough.

You have bias that some people will have received a free sample or heavily discounted in exchange for a review, and these people will not have necessarily have been anxious/depressed in the first place, but they will report all sorts because they got a free expensive product that they can resell on eBay or elsewhere once they've upheld their end of the bargain by writing a glowing review. You have bias that people want it to work because they've just spent a huge amount of money on something in sheer desperation that it might work.

What people are actually doing is giving themself a mild electrical shock which makes them think something is happening. This device is just a mass-produced transcranial current stimulation device and we've known for years the evidence doesn't really support their use.

Even NICE has stated this should only be used by a qualified professional and that they must report this use to their clinical governance leads. Here are their list of side-effects, including risk of mania/hypomania which is a significant potential side effect for anything being done outside of clinical supervision: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ipg530/chapter/5-Safety"
The NICE guidelines also state that the results are "inconsistent" and that a lot more clinical research would be needed before they could make any recommendations compared to the wide range of other treatments for depression/anxiety.

They are leaning heavily on the words "medically approved" which is actually a very dark grey area (almost illegal, in fact) under the ASA because it is misleading customers. This doesn't mean it's approved by doctors as a good treatment for mental illness. It means that the device has been tested as safe and hasn't caused any serious injuries so has been given permission to be imported/sold in the UK and EU and that the manufacturer claims it is a medical device. The MHRA don't check if the device does what it says it will do, they rely on the manufacturer's claims, the MHRA only ensure that it doesn't cause any significant harm. This is a direct quote from the ASA about what can/can't be said about "medical devices": "Because the onus is on the manufacturer to comply with the Regulations, manufacturers should not state or imply that their device has been “approved” or “certified” by the MHRA."

Real qualified psychiatrists have been playing with electricity around sufferers of mental illnesses for over 100 years. Read into the gruesome history if you want to horrify yourself with all the things they have done. Really, if there were any benefits to this at all beyond placebo, psychiatrists in hospitals would be queueing up to use these instead of having to book repeated slots in a theatre and with an anaesthetist (very expensive) to do a course of ECT on people with treatment resistant suicidality.

Please value your health and your mental health and get treatment from a qualified professional rather than spending a big sum of money on something like this. I say this as someone who has been stung by too many charlatans in the mental health sphere.

Edited

Excellent and full answer. Backed up by common sense.

Redone53 · 17/10/2024 14:22

GoodOldEmmaNess · 04/03/2024 08:21

Reminds me of a dusty black box that my hairdresser brought out decades ago, claiming that the mild electrical current it delivered was a treatment for my alopecia. Felt kind of nice. Zero effect.
I guess there must be something behind this new gizmo, since there is an NHS-approved treatment associated with it. But never underestimate the power of consumer capitalism to string us along with bastardised, overstated, misapplied simulacra of anything vaguely, tentatively, hypothetically associated with some wellbeing claim or other.

Edited

Not sure if NHS approved, more NHS trialing

Original poster
speakout · 17/10/2024 17:50

I find the whole thing a little difficult to swallow.
If this is some new wonder treatment for depression why isn't the NHS and other healthcare providers pushing it out world wide?
This apparatus has been out a number of years and clinical trials have been few and with low numbers of participents.
If this is an effective solution for detpression- low cost, easy to administer, quick results then surely it would have been fast tracked through regulatory bodies.

Which leads me to think that it is not the golden egg.

OP posts:
BrickOtter · 18/10/2024 22:16

speakout · 17/10/2024 17:50

I find the whole thing a little difficult to swallow.
If this is some new wonder treatment for depression why isn't the NHS and other healthcare providers pushing it out world wide?
This apparatus has been out a number of years and clinical trials have been few and with low numbers of participents.
If this is an effective solution for detpression- low cost, easy to administer, quick results then surely it would have been fast tracked through regulatory bodies.

Which leads me to think that it is not the golden egg.

Flow is a type of neuromodulation technique (tdcs) , this is what the royal college of psychiatrists have to say about it.

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/treatments-and-wellbeing/neuromodulation

It is not a wonder treatment for depression rather like a lot of antidepressant medication is not helpful for many people. Flow does appear to help a number of people me included and is used by the NHS in some places but most people are left with funding there own device at the moment which makes it unavailable to many

Neuromodulation | Royal College of Psychiatrists

Learn about neuromodulation - including how it works, why it's used, and the effects and side-effects of receiving neuromodulation.

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/treatments-and-wellbeing/neuromodulation

annamontanabanana · 14/02/2025 04:21

Just put my headset on for the first time as I'm trying to come off antidepressants and have had a miserable few days. Anyone else find it almost unbearably itchy? Not what I was expecting :(

Fatbetty72 · 14/02/2025 08:26

annamontanabanana · 14/02/2025 04:21

Just put my headset on for the first time as I'm trying to come off antidepressants and have had a miserable few days. Anyone else find it almost unbearably itchy? Not what I was expecting :(

Make sure you have cleaned the area first. Any sort of cream/ moisturiser in the area can cause it to irritate. I wash my face. use it and then put moisturiser in the area - the skin does get used to it. Unless unbearable give it at least a couple of weeks. It helps me enormously. I got it as part of an NHS trial and I've been using it for the last three years.

Viviennemary · 14/02/2025 08:31

I don't think I would try this. What about therapy. CBT is meant to be very good.

annamontanabanana · 14/02/2025 16:34

Just to say I persisted through the itching and it was a wonderful (although itchy) experience! I felt like I wanted to claw my skin off to begin with (but that did get better as it went on) but my mind felt like it was full of joy and happiness and flowers. I wasn't expecting it to work so quickly so I'm delighted! Just hoping it wasn't a placebo effect. Been feeling a lot better today although I'd really like another session. I'm not allowed to have one again until it's been 24 hours though. Annoying but still a huge step forward. Just hoping it lasts!

MsGoodenough · 15/02/2025 15:55

I rented one then have been too scared to use it! Spending £70 a month for nothing so worst of both worlds! But every time I go to cancel my Direct debit I think maybe I should give it a go. Inspired by this thread to try it now.

ThePure · 15/02/2025 16:12

www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03305-y

There actually is decent peer reviewed RCT evidence of modest benefit

Probably a better idea than Facebook reviews.

ThePure · 15/02/2025 16:16

The NHS does not fund a lot of good MH treatments with an evidence base sadly and NICE guidelines are often many years out of date.

RTMS is even better than tDCS and not available in our area nor in many others despite being accepted by most psychiatrists as highly effective. My attempts to get it funded for my patients are met with 'there is no money'

SB1967 · 15/02/2025 18:36

I've just begun using it I'll let you know how I get on

annamontanabanana · 15/02/2025 19:20

Had my second session last night and I'm feeling more or less cured which I'm obviously delighted about and more than a little bit surprised. Although also worried in the back of my mind that it's a placebo effect (even if it does say in their info leaflet that some people see results after only 1 to 2 days). When I started taking the antidepressants I was on before this, they said they'd take weeks to work too but actually worked more or less immediately so maybe I'm just a quick responder. The itching was much better second time around too, possibly because I'd had the motivation to shower during the day (my forehead was clean the first time but my hair wasn't and it touches your hair so maybe that was it). It was still a little bit itchy though. I'd definitely recommend trying this but it does sound like it takes longer to work for most people. Just not sure how I'll afford the headset pads but some people seem to make their own solution so maybe that will work.

annamontanabanana · 15/02/2025 19:21

Real shame this isn't more readily available on the NHS. I'd be curious to try the RTMS too although I seem to be getting a good result from this! So frustrating about the funding issues.

Fatbetty72 · 15/02/2025 21:40

I got my headset as part of an NHS trial so I think it will be more widely available soon. Worth asking your GP anyway. The pads can be used twice I find if i keep them in a sandwich bag.

Goodwithoccasionalrain · 19/02/2025 13:37

Totally understand folks’ nervousness about silver bullets and quack science as there is a lot of it about, and most of it costs a fortune but does nothing. I’ve had a nightmare few years getting away from my ex, and it had left me absolutely broken. Thanks to a wonderful GP and psychiatrist, I’d got back towards something resembling stable.

I was nervous about coming off the antidepressants, but wanted my hair back and didn’t like the fug that suppressed every emotion, not just the dark ones. As for many here, flow ads seemed to be everywhere, and I dismissed it as yet another expensive con. But I did some research, and was quite impressed - there are a fair few reviews that look like there was some kind of incentive, but when you get past the marketing on facebook there is loads of peer reviewed papers and on balance it seemed worth the investment.

I’ve been using the headset for two weeks and I can’t overstate how effective it is. It does feel weird and you look a bit odd wearing it; the electrical stimulation thing does make me think of The Clockwork Orange and you have to take care of your skin to keep it healthy.

The impact of this thing is amazing! I started feeling a little brighter after a few days, and two weeks in the improvement is tangible. Where the antidepressants pulled me out of the darkness, Flow has left me feeling actually happy.

The Facebook ads had a thing about getting up, dressed and brushing teeth. I hadn’t realised how challenging I was finding these basic things. I suppose that when you have kids you just concentrate on putting one foot in front of the other. I don’t know if it’s the electric stimulation or the courses that come with the app, but I’m now getting everything done. With bells on!

If you are considering it, check in with your GP, especially if you’re on or need to consider medication.

The stats in the papers suggest that it works for a really high percentage of people, but that does leave some that it won’t work for, so the rental option might be sensible.

But if you can afford it, can commit to looking a little weird for 30 minutes, five days a week, and doing the courses then you might just find your spark again.

PinkFloydFan67 · 22/02/2025 00:51

Used it about half a dozen times now and coincidentally or not had a very very tough week. I'll keep going and see what happens.

baldeagle1948 · 28/03/2025 18:54

If you want to cheat you can use it as often as you like. Just register again with a different email address and start again, then you can alternate between the two accounts to get full usage. Be careful though as there maybe a reason why they limit your useage.

PinkFloydFan67 · 28/03/2025 22:10

baldeagle1948 · 28/03/2025 18:54

If you want to cheat you can use it as often as you like. Just register again with a different email address and start again, then you can alternate between the two accounts to get full usage. Be careful though as there maybe a reason why they limit your useage.

I would not advise using this in a way other than recommended. I have read about people ending up on psychiatric wings after using it. I myself ended up at A&E after using it for two weeks though I wouldn't necessarily blame this on the device.