Can you be depressed without the lethargy?

[Arion]

I'm really struggling at the moment, I was referred for counselling as my anxiety was getting worse. At the introductory session, talking things through opened up unresolved depressive episodes x 2. Had 1st proper session last week, anxiety score has gone right down, depression score has gone up. I don't have the feeling of trying to fight my way through mud like previous times. All the sad has been coming out this week, I'm not sleeping, I can't eat, I am holding onto control and functioning by the tips of my fingers, but I feel really clear headed. I usually bottle everything up and cover it with a layer of food, I don't know what to do with all this emotion. I'm scared it's going to break me, I'm scared of spiralling down into the depression of before, I'm scared of being stopped from ending things if it starts to get bad, and having to go through it again.
I have 2 lovely children and they are what are holding me here, I can't let them see me go down, I don't want to hurt them. I can't see what others see in me though. I've comfort ate from primary school, this is my normal, to feel that the world would be better if I wasn't here, to be waiting for everyone to see me how I do, and hate me. This is what I bury, this is what I cover with food. All this is welling up though and I keep feeling so sad. I've tried talking to friends (which I've never done in the past) but I'm hurting them and worrying them by hurting so much.
I'm on a very low dose of Amytriptaline for anxiety, (10mg) but I've just had 2 months supply to see me through the counselling. On Tuesday I was checking how much you would need to OD, I have enough, but all the information says that this is a really easy drug to OD on, and high risk of death, it's kind of a better be certain than a cry for help type.
I feel really clear headed though, I'm researching this and working out the options with about as much emotion as sorting out a meal plan, or a to-do list. I just want this to end, I'm so tired of not living, of burying everything and just existing. I just want to stop.

That's a good idea, thanks

Morning, I started a big post last night, lost 1/2, re-typed in notes to copy over and then had an anxiety response, not sure if it's going away next week, what I was writing or just general over tiredness. I ended up being sick and just going to bed.

Here's what I was writing:

What I'm really scared of, is how low it could get, that's what I panic about when I start feeling down, more down than just a bad mood. The first depression I had almost broke me, I almost lost me, but even with how horrific it was, I still functioned. I still went to work. I was so numb inside I couldn't cry, even though I wanted to to release some pressure. I cut my pain into my arm to feel something, and to release some of the pressure in my head. Even with all that though, I felt then, and still do now, that there was further to fall, that I never actually hit rock bottom, that is what scares me, how deep it could actually go.

The other thing that scares me is the very seductive voice, that sometimes comes after a really good day. I had it after the first depression, when I was out of it, feeling contented and calm. It whispers that this would be a good day to draw a line, a good day to finish on. To go to the park (it used to be Bushy park when I was living in London, now the local park here), sit and watch the sunset over the lake. Then take the tablets and never have to struggle again, never be sad, or anxious or lonely. Just sleep, and no one would find me until it was too late. That voice is the most seductive because it comes when I'm rational, contented, not down on myself. When I'm angry or sad or raging it's a bit like a toddler tantrum, it's all I don't want to do this, rah, rah, someone take care of me, look after me, parent me, I don't want to be responsible for myself anymore, someone else do a better job. If I ever OD in that frame of mind, and I'm not sure I ever would, it would be a cry for help type, not wanting it to be permanent. But in the other frame of mind, I really wouldn't want to be found.

I'm not there, I've had a good, normal day, nothing amazing, but no low moods. I've just never really put those thoughts down before, so I thought I would while I'm feeling strong enough for it to not rattle me.

I've had a good root through the bookshelves this evening, couldn't find toxic parents, or another one, something about healing yourself I think. I've found loads though to work my way through though.

I'm going to think about this before replying

Thank you. I know this is all stuff I need to raise with my counsellor, it's trying to work out in which order to do it. Although I guess he might lead the conversation anyway so it might come out in a different order to what I think, or even totally different thoughts.

I guess I need to think less and live more in the moment.

Hi. I haven't been ignoring you! But you knew that anyway

I've been thinking about what you wrote. This may be simplistic, but I see it this way:

Your life is a film or a novel. In the final scene/chapter, there is a happy ending. Everything concludes on a high note, there's nothing but the credits to follow. But that's fiction. Real life is more complex. Multiple sequels

Have you ever heard it said that people want a sudden death for themselves, but when it comes to their friends and relatives they want time to say their goodbyes? I think that's the same kind of thing

A pleasant 'final chapter' then nothing sounds good sometimes, but you wouldn't want it for someone you love. You want them to feature in all the sequels, even the zero star review sequels!

Is that a meaningless ramble?

Hi Marchate, yes I knew you weren't ignoring me

That makes a lot of sense. I think I've spent so long not telling people what goes on in my head, that I've blown thoughts out of proportion, and I don't have a brilliant grasp on what's normal and what's not. An example of this is intrusive thoughts, I was so relieved when I came across these, and a description of what they are (I think that was probably a Mumsnet thread), as I'd been thinking I was an awful person when they popped in my head!

Dh arranged a babysitter last night and took me out, and I got flowers. He's trying to be understanding but he really doesn't get it. I've not talked to him about any of the stuff on the thread as I didn't want worried eyes on me, I wanted to try and keep a bit of 'normal' at home the best I could. He's noticed my mood is swinging more than usual but doind his best to be understanding. He thinks it's just the tablets but I think it's more the counselling prodding a sore spot, that I didn't realise was still sore. Don't worry though, I'm not on my own with this, I sent a link to this thread to 2 friends I trust right near the start of the thread. I don't mind them knowing stuff about me, and it's kind of a security blanket that if I started spiralling down and couldn't talk to anyone, there would be someone in real life who could see as well.

I'm on day 4 now of feeling more like myself, more my normal. Dh is back now for 2 weeks, 1 week of holiday and then 1 week working from home. We're off to London on Thursday for a couple of days, we're taking the Dcs to Hamleys as they've both had money for Easter and some birthday money left - I must be bonkers though, an 8 yr old and a 5 yr old running amok in Hamleys

If you don't hear from me for a bit, it's cos I'm busy, not anything bad. I hope you don't mind, I do like talking with you, you seem very kind and very astute. I do look forward to seeing your responses, you give me lots to think about, and you're always very gentle.

I've found my copy of Toxic Parents now, I actually had 2 copies at one point as a friend got me a copy after seeing my mum in action, so I might see you over on the Stately Homes thread. I can handle the thought of Mum being a bit toxic, she used to be very passive-aggressive as I was growing up. I don't know if I can name it abuse, it raises too many questions about their role in my life now, too much emotion, that I can't deal with at the moment. Does that make sense? As they say denial is not just a river in Egypt!

Have a good time. Speak later!

Hi again.

So, I'm back from London. Had a great time, still feeling good. Next counselling session is Tuesday and I'm mixed between trepidation and eagerness. I know I need to sort things as otherwise it will always be there in my background, but it's tough going through it to sort things.

My brain was whirring last night, awake at 1:30am, thoughts on top of thoughts but connections made.

My 'normal' is probably mild depression, from doing the PHQ-9 and GAD 7 at every session, and the PHQ-9 at the doctors, when everything is normal, I'm between a 4 and a 9. When I was raging and everything was too much, I'd gone up to 19 on the score (moderately severe). It's like I'm standing in the ocean, kind of mid calf deep, and that's fine, my legs aren't cold, they've got used to it. Every year it rises to about knee level, but again, I can deal with it, it's not too bad, I can look around, see things, still feel the sun on my face, wind in my hair. I tell myself it's a bad mood, even though it last for 1 or 2 months. I pretend everything is still fine and don't name it as depression. With the counselling prodding sore areas, it was like being in a storm, I was still only knee deep in the water, but the waves were crashing over me, and I couldn't move. I knew where I needed to go, but I couldn't back away, out of the sea, because my feet were planted firmly in the sand to stop me being pulled under. If I moved, to back away, the undertow could pull me away, into the depths of the ocean. I was just stuck where I was with all the thoughts crashing over me. Going to the doctors and having the prescription for Sertraline, gave me a rock to shelter behind, till I could back away, by myself.

Last night I could see the link between my anxiety and the depression, and why treating one has pulled the other out.

When DD was born, I had PND (although a lot of it was anxiety). I fed, her, cuddled her, reacted to her because she needed it, not because I felt anything. I still worry that that has affected her. I can remember crying in the shower trying to work out what to do. The world seemed such an awful place, so hard, so violent, such a struggle, that I could leave her to face it without me. But I was aware enough to understand that babies are more fragile than adults, if I was found but she died, there would be no point. If I'd killed my baby, I would be watched, and stopped, and I'd have to live, I would be kept from trying again.

When the feelings came in with DD it was sharp, I'd check on her sleeping, and it would feel like I was stabbed, the feelings were that strong, that I wanted to protect her, stop anything hurting her.

With DS, I never wanted a boy. I wanted DD to have the sister I never had. I was sure it was a boy, so we found out at the 20 wk scan, I cried afterwards. Then at 24 wks, DH in his usual foot in mouth way, said that if I miscarried now, I'd still get maternity leave wouldn't I? I realised then, that I wanted this baby, not any baby, so it was a good thought. When DS came the feelings were different from DD. Ever since I was little I'd always felt empty inside. I tried to fill that hole with food. I can remember talking to a psych nurse at West Midd hospital, (I'd gone in about something and they'd seen the cuts on my arm). I can remember telling her that I felt so empty, like a black hole that I could suck all the love, and happiness, and affection from those around me, and it still wouldn't be nearly enough to fill it. I can still remember how it felt even though it was so long ago. When I looked at DS though, I felt calmed, and he filled the hole, almost without me noticing till it was gone. I used to be worried about the difference in my love between DD and DS but I think it's probably projection of me onto DD, that I wanted to protect her emotionally like I wasn't. Whereas, with DS, there was no past baggage of that sort.

Well, thinking about all this, it struck me, that the anxiety has grown since having children, but at the base of it is my core thoughts about me. I'm scared of something happening to my children, it's the worst thing I can think of happening. If either of them ever slept in, I'd be scared till I heard them, I was scared to check, in case they weren't breathing, scared of SIDS. But it all comes back to a belief that I have, that I don't deserve to be happy. That if I am happy, something bad will happen, which leads back to the anxiety, that pulls out the depressive thoughts.

Sorry that was so long. I can put things together, in my head, and understand where different things link, I can see the patterns and understand the connections. It's just hard to feel it, my feelings about me are stuck at the small child, that never felt good enough. Never really felt loved, just a nuisance. There's that phrase 'a face only a mother could love', I'm stuck at about age 8, with how awful I must be if even my own mother can't love me. Only children were always labelled spoiled in the seventies, most of the children I knew were siblings, there always seemed to be favourites. But I looked at them, and always thought how much worse it was to be an only and still not be the favourite.

Oh Arion, things will get better. I guess once you are guided through your feelings by the therapist, you will learn ways to face them and survive the experience

So, today I just feel a bit flat, sad, withdrawn. Counselling yesterday was good and not so good. Chris was really pleased that I've not had any of my usual anxiety response. Even when I've been high with my scores, and I've had DS' birthday and a trip away, (which would usually trigger at least one morning if not almost a week) I haven't had my usual awake at 5am spending 2 and a bit hours racing to the toilet with an upset stomach and sickness. It's definitely showing that what goes on in my body is more reflection of something psychological. He seemed really impressed, although I don't feel like I've actually done much with that. I've done some exercises around IBS and controlling the response, but it's kind of just happened. He seemed to think it a big deal, so I might just be doing my twisted thinking of minimising my sucesses. I'm happy that it is better though, it is a big relief. He was also pleased that my scores had dropped again, the PHQ-9 and GAD7 were almost back down to what they'd class as normal levels. So I must be doing something right to help myself.

I talked at the start of the session about all the things that have gone through my head to talk to him about, including my parents, but no details. Also talked about the link that I think there is between the anxiety and depression and linked to my children and anxiety over them. We did a bit on core beliefs, and he said how hard they are to change, especially if they've been formed in childhood. He said that I might not be able to change my core beliefs, it might be a case of managing them, raising and strengthening my more rational response so that it doesn't affect me so much. Maybe using humour as well to negate some of the effects. He said I'm very good at thinking things through, understanding what is happening. He wanted to know if that is something I could live with?

He wrote a couple of sentences down

1. I'm not awful I'm . . .
2. I might think I'm awful at times but . . . It was difficult to think of something positive to add, but I did. Definitely a tough bit of the session. Also talking about what I'd say to the me of 19 years ago if they came in the door. How are my beliefs different now, what could I say to make her feel better. That was tough as well.

We talked about how the session had gone, whether it was better in that format of more rational, not so much of the emotions. He said that he'd deliberately not gone into much of of the emotions and that it shouldn't be hell for me each week. I said that I think I need to talk through some more of the past though and the emotions because I need help with what to do with them, when I feel really sad and really angry I don't know what to do, how to deal with it. I need practise somewhere where I feel safe, where it's not going to break me, where I'm supported, before I can manage them by myself.

So sorry for another epically long post. I just feel a bit deflated, yesterday afternoon and today. It didn't help that DS dislocated his elbow yesterday at school (3rd dislocation) so we had a trip up to A&E. It's horrible seeing him in so much pain, he literally looks shocked, can't speak, can't move, and he's usually never still, and never quiet! When they brought him through to me I could see straight away that he'd really hurt himself again, just by his posture. I should have been working at after school club, but obviously that didn't happen. We were in and out within about an hour though, we were really lucky that they were so quiet.

I feel really sad for the child that I was, the potential that I had, and how I feel now. I look at my two and I can't understand how someone could not talk/withhold affection from a child of that age. Mine aren't angels, they're exasperating and gorgeous in equal measures, but they're wonderful, and I love them so much, I just want them to know. Even when I'm made at them I try to make sure they know they're still loved. They're good kids. I know it's Mum's failing but part of me just wonders how awful was I that she didn't feel that for me? Rationally, I know it wasn't me, but it still feels like my failing inside. Sometimes when my parents are over and one or the other is stropping off about something or being really loud, Mum has said 'you were never like that, you were such a good child' I just feel like screaming at her, because I never felt like one.

So, yes, just feel a bit sad and flat at the moment, and that there's too much 'me'. I managed the grand total of a chip cob yesterday at dancing, and that was a struggle. I ate it because I needed something, I felt really lightheaded and nearly fell over a couple of times but it was a bit like trying to eat cardboard.

I've got some homework to do, Chris recommended 2 books Mind over Mood and Compassionate Mind. I already had the first one from ages ago, I stopped by town after my session and got the second one. I felt really sick in Waterstones, and my stomach just clenched so it definitely is a physical reaction to what's going on in my head.

So, with awesome timing, my buddy box from Blurt turned up today. I'd bought myself one to see what they were like. Lovely to receive, the postcard and pin made me cry, but in a good way, not overwhelming, probably the release I needed. Have to put my game face on now though, I'm due at school for the nursery toy library.

Feel more normal now, but not eating again, which I think has helped get back to feeling more normal, not really very hungry or bothered about food, not eaten since the chip cob on Tuesday. I'll have to eat tomorrow night and at the weekend as I'm not out anywhere to avoid it and family will notice. I feel more clear headed and less emotional and the urge to cut is much less when I've got a slight feeling of hunger instead. Just too much 'me' again.

I replied yesterday but it evidently didn't post!

Hi Marchate, good to hear from you. IT is wonderful when it actually works properly isn't it?!

I probably pressed Preview instead of Post. It has been known! I have no recollection of what I wrote so I'll take it from here...

Happens to the best of us!

Well, just finished reading Reasons to Stay Alive by Matt Haig. Amazing book, so uplifting, and it really resonated. I've got 'The Compassionate Mind' next but not sure how that'll go, I started looking at the chapter 'from self-criticism to self-compassion' and nearly cried within a few lines. Might be one to take slowly. Next session is on Thursday, so have plenty of time to dip into it. I don't want to push anything too hard at the moment as my grasp on 'normal' feels quite precarious!

Had some coleslaw, ritz crackers and an apple this afternoon, so eating again. Interestingly, the last time I really bombed down I started that week, and I started yesterday, so some of it may be hormonal at the moment. DH away in Poland next week, not looking forward to that, and it seems quite a long time till my next counselling session.

Glad you've managed to eat a bit

It hurts more when I eat. I've had to eat normally this weekend as DH and DCs around. Spent the weekend really wanting to cut, the urge is still there today. Benn reading the Compassionate Mind book, it really makes sense, I've been highlighting and marking sections but it also makes me really sad, that I'm so far away from this. It's a relief today that DH has gone to Warsaw, and that DCs are back at school. I've got no one at home watching / noticing what I'm doing, so I can just avoid food. The slightly spaced out feeling and slight hunger kill off any urge to cut, it's a different sensation, it dampens down the sad as well. I'll need to eat tomorrow lunchtime as meeting up with a friend, but can avoid apart from that. DH back late on Thursday and I have a session with Chris Thursday morning, lots to talk about with him. I'm 3 1/2 stone overweight so there's no issue with me not eating, there's plenty spare from all the years of comfort eating.

Hi. I logged in before going to bed

It makes me sad that you need one kind of suffering to replace the others. Being hungry is possibly less dangerous than SH, but I don't really know

I think someone recommend that book to me. I might buy it. Sounds like it might be a struggle to read, but worth it

I'm sorry, I don't want to make anyone feel sad.

I'm just struggling with emotions. I'm reading bits of Toxic Parents and bits of Compasionate Mind and they make sense, and I can see I follow a pattern, and how common it is. And I just feel sad. It's not the overwhelming sad I had a few weeks ago, when I couldn't stop crying but it's just there.

I don't think it's coincidence that it's coming out now. DD is 8, my friend's DS (J) has just turned 11, I look at them and they're just kids, wonderful, exasperating children, and I know that by J's age I was stealing money, to buy sweets because I felt so unloved and empty inside, that I was trying to fill the hole, the emptiness, the only way I could. And I feel so sad for that child. But it doesn't touch, or diminish, how much I hate myself at the present. It's why I try not to think about it, because I am sad about it, but it's just constant at the moment, everything is so stirred up from counselling and trying to deal with it, and it just takes time. But it's so hard living with it whilst I try and sort it. I'm 42, I've spent so long burying this, and now I'm having to feel it, and work through it as it won't stay buried any longer. It's just hard.

I am 57, and I feel I got here in a turmoil of my parents' making. I have tried to make sense of it before, without any success or even understanding. But I'm trying again

My daughter has MH problems and I feel responsible for that. I don't know what I did, but it must've been something

I have Toxic Parents but haven't started reading it yet. I must have a look through it soon

Hope you have a better day

Oh Marchate , my DD is only 8 and I'm so worried about her. I've had depression, Mum had depression, statistics say she's got a 40% chance. I hope she's getting the help she needs?

I'm finding Toxic Parents a hard read, small chunks at a time.

Hope you have a good day.

Arion, I just want to send you a peaceful hug. The writing and drawing may help, and have you tried things like meditation or yoga? Sometimes there are free / very inexpensive groups around, you may want to google? I found that yoga for me is the only thing that really brings me right back to the ground, I do not suffer to the extent you describe but I always fight with anxiety and muscular pain due to my anxiety.
Learning a few mediation tricks may help and you may be able to apply them during the day a few minutes each time.
Lots of love x

Thank you Carminia, I haven't really tried meditation or yoga. I did get a book on mindfulness, which I think might be a bit along the same lines as meditation? The book on self compassion had some sections with mindful in them. I've not read that yet though, still working my way through the other 2.

So, I thought I'd get yesterday's session down before I forget some of it. I've been struggling a bit this week, sad, feeling like I need to cry but no tears, and also a bit scared that if I start I won't stop.

My scores were about the same as last week so Chris was happy with that. He questioned about the 'thoughts you would be better off dead, or hurting yourself in some way' question as that was high. I said about it being the urge to self-harm and how I wasn't eating which helped with the feelings. He talked about how it's common to switch from one method of coping to another, and it was good that is not harmed and I was functioning even when my scores were at their worst.

It was session number 5 yesterday so I've only one session left which is scary, but he said that feeling is normal as well. He asked what I wanted to talk about, I said about the emotions. So I talked about how I felt as a child, unloved and unloveable and he helped lead me through feeling the emotion there and holding it, not running away and it did start to subside on its own. He pointed out I was rubbing and picking at my wrist when I was feeling it, but he said that's common as well. Just a way of coping with the feelings. He's also said that its a pause in the counselling and I can self refer in the future if I need to, and that I can come back to him if I want to.

I had a nice text from a friend yesterday, telling me good things about me. It came at just the right time. I feel lighter today, and for a little while first thing today I felt like I was enough.

I'm hoping as I move away from the counselling and not having everything stirred up each week, the need to control through controlling my food will subside. If it doesn't at least I know I can refer again to get some more help if I need to.

He didn't have any sessions next week, so my last session is on 3rd May. I'm not sure if that is intentional, to space it out a bit so I can see I can cope. Life feels manageable at the moment, I have things to look forward to so I feel in a much better place than I have for a long time.