Help without Anti Depressants

[SugarHut]

I'd really like some (kind,helpful) advice please, as I've seen some very harsh and condescending things written where people seem to genuinely be seeking help.

I have a 5yr old boy, and being very honest, I've never really even liked him...I feel like if I could press a button and it would take me back to never have fallen pregnant then I would press it like a shot. I make myself be as good a mother as I can, I hug him and tell him I love him, but I feel nothing. I don't feel repulsion, or hatred, but I feel nothing towards him. It makes me so sad...mainly for him, although I feel I hide it well and he's none the wiser. I long for the 2 days a week my mother has him when I can be me. I'm not a drippy "woe is me" failure, I'm a very strong woman, he's in private school, I have a very good job, which is not even very demanding...on the outside, I look like I have it made....but I wanted a girl so very badly, and every day I feel disappointed.

He's very smart, he gets outstanding reports, his behaviour is excellent, they are talking about putting him up a year in school...all things other parents tell me are amazing. On the outside I smile and gush and agree...on the inside I couldn't care less. I hate it.

Does this sound like depression? I can't bring myself to take any medication, so please don't advise me too. And please don't lecture me for "you shouldn't have had a child if you only wanted a girl" yes I did...but trust me if I knew I'd be this permanently disengaged and hate it to the extremes I do, then I would not have had him and saved us both. No pointless battering me for a decision I can not reverse, I feel bad enough as it is.

I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry. I am looking at him right now, and I picture him being a girl and I feel like there is so much love in me for a girl and he's just this child in my house that I don't even feel related to that's ruined my life.

What do I do??? Are there any non medication routes that actually work if I am depressed? Does it even sound like depression? I know these feelings aren't normal, and I know it shouldn't have taken me 5 years to say something about it. But anyone who has had a remotely similar experience please help me. x x x

Oh Sugar, my heart breaks for you really.

I don't really think that your son is the prime victim here if I'm honest. When you have severe PND and have this hollowness inside, you are repeatedly told that if you act "as if" you care for and love your child, the damage to them is hugely minimised. Again, not diagnosing you with that, this seems to be more strictly about attachment (again not a diagnosis!) but I am not hearing any stories of cruelty, neglect or ill will towards your boy.

Your descriptions of him demonstrate a caring and pride that you just can't feel in the hollowness inside. That may shock you but the truth is that when people really feel no love or care for a child, they tend to neglect them utterly, not interact with them, view them as stubborn, difficult, wilful, demanding etc. I have a friend and fellow PND sufferer who has just gone through this. The way she used to speak about him horrified me, she sounded like she despised him and it showed in her actions. She was also ill and having attachment difficulties but it was clearly demonstrable in her son's behaviour. I think it's difficult to say that quiet, good behaviour is desperate in the way people have suggested here because if his material needs have been provided for regularly and with consistency and you have worn the Stepford Mum mask well, at 5 he will at some deep level know that there is something a bit off but it is all to play for if you get the right treatment. You are repeatedly asking if people learn to love their children so on some level you do want to love him I think you are deeply afraid of it and stuck in that word web of pain.

I think that to some extent people are being unfair in saying that he needs to be removed from you because the real harm in this sort of thing is usually done by people who really don't care about the child on any human level. I work in child development and before my own experiences, I also worked in the differential diagnosis of autism and attachment disorder. I sometimes think MN is a rarefied world where people don't really understand what severe neglect and attachment issues look like.

I do think it is important to surround him with lots of people who he can attach to while you bear this burden and to try to keep stability in his life.

It is a spectacularly haunting and difficult thing when a woman provides a high degree of care and outward affection to a child that she can't feel that natural reinforcement of the bond with. He feels like the cuckoo in your nest yet you play with him, talk to him, view him as good and intelligent and hope for his future happiness and wellbeing. You do all of this without the pay off that other mothers have. That is an act of love and kindness in and of itself. You are suffering here because you don't have that experience of love and connection that sustains all of us through our darkest days as parents.

"Do you realise how wrong it is to believe that smartness, good behaviour.....etc" I don't believe that at all. The fact you have read (hopefully) this full thread and that is what you conclude just means you don't get it. I'm too tired of re explaining to people who can't/won't see the wood for the trees. Your post is just plain and simply wrong, your opinion is not unimportant, and thank you for commenting, but forgive me for skipping over another post giving advice to something that has been entirely misinterpreted.

Perhaps you have glossed over where I've raised nearly £20k this year alone for Leukaemia research. Nasty to the core....

x x x

Camaleon, that is very unkind and hurtful.

The OP is repeatedly again and again saying she wants a good life for this boy and that she feels nothing for him. Think about how those two interact for a minute.

What she is saying is deeply taboo but there are many people out there who have no such compunction about their lack of feeling for their child. It's not the "only good" about her, it's the person lost underneath a raft of stories that cause pain and suffering and which with good professional help can be dismantled and bring Sugar back to a sense of wholeness and goodness in herself.

You also say you have this incredibly great relationship with your mum (I don't for sure; we fight constantly and seem unable to communicate as adults so I envy you). However, I cannot think of a single thing that would make my mum/grandmother not to speak to me ever again.

You have said that twice on different places. Your amazing connection with your mother does not seem to be made only of love.

Working, as I have said, the lack of feelings towards her son is the only thing that make me feel sympathy towards her. If any other poster wrote here or said elsewhere the other things she say about girls/education/etc. she would be (rightly) flamed.

It is my opinion that this is not only a problem of attachement with a child; she wanted to be pygmalion of a doll and it did not work. However she is trying to work it out. This makes her a better person than the one she seems to be in general. She seems to have enough confidence to disregard my words.

Hi, I've a bit more time now...I would be really interested to know if the Anna Freud Centre can offer you anything if you don't mind sharing.

I think it is really important that you find someone who is an expert in this area. Otherwise I feel (but I do not presume to know) you will become frustrated and dismissive and your search for help risks being counter productive. I would not be at all surprised if your GP is a bit non-plussed when you see him/her.

The best therapists for me have been those that challenged me, put up with my disdain at times but continued to "hold" me-a bit like a good parent I guess.

You might need to shop around a bit and you will almost definitely have to pay, but the cost of good therapy will be the best money you ever spend.

There are loads of questions I'd like to ask you but I think my motives would be more curiosity than your best interests so I will resist!

I hope that doesn't sound too flippant, I wish you and your son all the best.

Oh one more thing, I hope the go karting works well for you both, not sure you got enough encouragement about that.

Cameleon, you can only judge someone on what they are saying right now. No one knows what Sugar really wanted when she first got pregnant, not even Sugar. Who does, really? We all sort of spin our stories when we look back on them looking at them through the lens of where we are at and what we are feeling right now.

Two weeks ago I forgot to take my medication with me for a weekend. After three days, I couldn't remember ever having felt any love for my older son and I was desperately upset by it. When you are ill and your brain in bathed in the chemicals generated by these sorts of thinking patterns, it actually reduces access to the better parts of yourself. You literally forget your good memories.

I sometimes wonder why there is so much kicking done on MN anyway if I'm honest. What do people get out of that sort of righteous indignation? I'm not saying this as if I've been a saint... I've been both kicker and kicked since becoming a mother and it has been deeply damaging at times to be in both. I am quite well now and I have an open stance of curiosity and as far as I can non-judgemental acceptance of people's stories with a belief that we are all doing the best that we can, just sometimes we end up off path. It has really worked to calm my own mind and quell my own mind to respond to others' stories like this so in extending compassion to Sugar, I am extending compassion to the person I was when ill who lost all access to my better self for a while.

Working9, I agree, at the moment, I feel he is not a victim, I might even dare to say blissfully unaware...but I am quite sure that by the time he was, say, 8...he would have detected something, and then he certainly will be the victim, in a catastrophic way.

I don't feel afraid, it's more I just can't comprehend feeling such a strong emotion as love one day, when I have no feeling for him, or have done for the last 5 years.

He's certainly not difficult, I find the actual going through the motions a breeze. Bed time for example, I run the bath at 6.30, he gets in cleans himself washes his own hair, gets out, puts his pjs on, brushes his teeth, comes to find me with the book he's chosen, we read a few pages then he takes himself skipping up to bed, we have a goodnight kiss and cuddle and I close the door at 7pm. "See you in the morning mummy, don't let the bed bugs bite" People have been here and watched this open mouthed, apparently most children do not "do" bedtime in this easy manner every night.

The last paragraph you wrote is perfect. I could not summarise the last 5 years in a better way. I just feel even guiltier, as I do not feel he ever causes any "darkest days", the phrase often hammering through my head is "what more does this poor child need to do?"

x x x

The best therapists for me have been those that challenged me, put up with my disdain at times but continued to "hold" me-a bit like a good parent I guess.

^^

This.

I have had therapy on and off over the years since quite young really but it was only when I met the therapist I had this time who did exactly this that I actually made headway and it has made the world of difference.

Ah there have been a few more posts since I drafted mine. I'm think I'm very much with Working here, though I am not eloquent enough to put things as well as she.

Its obvious Sugar has said some really shocking things here, its also obvious -and Sugar I'm risking some of your ire here but I think I can take it- that she has been pointlessly rude. There is, on the face of it a contradiction in what she says about her relationship with her own mother and in not being able to give her an inkling of this most intimate of problems but ... all of this points to a woman in considerable turmoil. Not a nasty person undeserving of sympathy (and I am not saying anyone has said that, quite.)

Now I'm really putting myself out there- Sugar I'm not so sure that you don't love your son. I'm not so sure that you are not a "good enough mother".

Like Working (but in a different context) I have had some experience of cases of neglect including emotional neglect and that's truly not what I am hearing from you.

Harrap...you don't risk the wrath of Sugar ;) I don't write to be shocking and rude. I write to be candid and have little time for candy coating and political correctness where this issue, MY issue is concerned, I have what I readily acknowledge, as serious fucking problems. What category they fall under I have no idea. The difference in why I appreciate what you write, is whilst you may read my posts and hugely disagree/agree/think I'm mental (delete where applicable!) my point is, you read them. You can actually understand what it going on, and from there on, what you comment, I find of value. I might argue against it, but I want to, and need to hear it. I want to try and look at whatever is wrong with me from lots of (well informed) angles before I talk to a professional...not have some chimp come out with primary school interpretations and accusations and insist they have the first clue at understanding any of this. I think what you find contradictory about my closeness with my mother and the fact that she will never ever hear about this, is only because it's an issue regarding my son. She beyond idolises him, he is the light of her life, and she treats him in a way that I physically could not ask for more. She would literally be torn in two if she heard any of this. I don't tell her to protect what we have, and what it would do to her, she would worry every day, she would pander to me, she would try and take The Boy all the time worrying that I couldn't cope. Without exaggeration it would destroy her. That happening is not an option.

I don't love my son. I act towards him that I very much do, "Stepford Mum" is quite apt, and I wish I could feel genuine feelings. But you are correct with the neglect thing....the most polar opposite word to describe my son would be neglect. He wants for nothing ( certainly not being a spoilt brat, but I try to allow him to have "good" toys), he stuffs his little face with excellent food, he's seen a lot of the world and experienced a lot of things, he has glowing school reports. And yet I feel no pride telling you any of that.

x x x

Thank you, Sugar, for responding graciously to my rather hard (I won't say harsh) and blunt post.

I am very interested (that sounds voyeuristic - I hope you kwim) in your account of how your mother feels about your boy. With all your close identification with her, can you imagine, at all, feeling 'as she does' towards him, iyswim?

This might be a radical suggestion to which you might say NFW, considering what you say about what it would do to your mother if she knew any of this, and I am not advocating you do this instead of therapy (rather as well as), but I am wondering whether it might be a way forward to confide some of this in her? Might she be able to help you, through your closeness with each other, towards feeling for him the way she does?

you have absolutely no idea how you sound do you. calling people stupid now.

good luck to you too.

Ok so if I'm not risking your wrath I'll push just a little further.
1)It's one thing not to sugar coat (pun intended) things but calling people morons and chimps is another...just saying.
2)Have you read about attachment theory and good enough parenting -John Bowlby isn't it, Working?
3)I understand what you have said about your mother and it occurred to me that your son is getting love from other members of his family even if he isn't from you so that's pretty good and a great deal more than a lot of children have.
4)Point 3 does not mean "so that's all right then" Yes you have stuff-serious stuff- you need to work on but you are taking some responsibility and that is admirable.
5) A theme running through your posts seems to be perfection-I'd be curious to know how important that has been/is in your life. What I'm getting at is your perfect scenario was to have a girl you didn't get that and somewhere the acceptance and processing of that disappointment has been missed and "second best" just can't be countenanced. In my life an attachment to the idea of perfection and the way things "should" be has been unhelpful.
6) Resilience-you have said that things have generally gone well in your life- now you've hit something you can't control. In my experience and again this just my experience and may not be relevant to you- true resilience involves flexibility, and is built by having problems and finding ways to cope. Maybe you just haven't had many difficult experiences and life since the 20 week scan has really thrown you. But here you are asking for help, finding a way to deal with your problems and thus becoming more resilient.

Oh dear I do go on...

Crosspost with harrap. She says it better

Ha ha harrap, if that's going on then I must thank you all for bearing with me!

Camaleon, I have a thread on here at the moment about afflictive mental states and not categorising all mh issues as "illness" that I am exploring. Someone talked about how with mh we are often fixed into a place where you package your illness as "I was ill, I got help, I got better" because this is what is palatable to others and preserves our sense of dignity and self... but the inbetween times, before the help, it is messy and difficult.

I have no doubt that I was a deeply unpleasant person at times when I was ill. Deeply, deeply, deeply unpleasant. It was the black dog barking for me.

Now, with meds and therapy even if I have that sort of irritability or anger or condescension/perfectionism going on there is no way I would give into it because I recognise my feelings influence but do not control my behaviour and I have a responsibility to treat others kindly and with compassion - not to be perfect, but to be kind.

But God, I was a bitch. It didn't really reflect how I was in lots of areas of my life but some of my posts on here were truly dire and mean-spirited and crappy...

I now know that I was acting against my values as a person and increasing my suffering by speaking in that way but it did feel incredibly valid and I totally bought into some of these unhelpful ideas.

The kicking comment, by the way, was not a dig at you. I wonder why I came here to get kicked and why I felt I could kick here. I wouldn't speak to ANYONE like that in real life. I suspect that is true for a great many AIBU frequenters, the carry on is shocking. But I am guilty and have been that person.

Working, I don't know why there is a presumtpion that we don't understand MH illness. Many of us have suffered, a lot, and have gone through different MH issues. I know how cruel suffering can make you I and how self-centered. I wish I didn't, but I do.

Still I have the right to launch the hypothesis, very much in line with harrap, that the OP belongs to the category of persons who believe that, because all has gone right in their life (and I don't doubt her when she says her childhood was perfect, it actually fits the hypothesis quite well) is because they did everything well. And therefore she has no mechanisms to deal with the only thing that has not gone the way she expected it.

Not sure if this is a MH issue or something else.

I'm only sharing my perspective, I'm not presuming anything about your understanding of MH to be honest. As I've said elsewhere on this forum, on an internet forum you are as much in discussion with yourself as with anyone else in some ways. I'm just sort of exploring my own thoughts. I wouldn't in any way suggest you didn't have a right to your hypotheses either, the only thing I really challenged was you calling SugarHut nasty/entitled etc because I don't think those sorts of terms are very supportive regardless. I'm not having a go at you for saying them here, just explaining my perspective.

(I would say I'm sort of filtering out the bits about morons/chimps etc - I said above to SugarHut I find it difficult and deeply unpleasant so have sort of left it).

I'm not working yet, don't really know if/when I'll be allowed back (Occ Health not up for it) and so life is a bit like an extended meditation retreat for me and I have a pretty reflective stance that I am trying to develop within myself if that makes sense. As I posted above, I'm finding compassion here for SugarHut I never found for myself when I lacked those feelings for my son and was going through the motions. I would have spoken about it differently in that I just denied even to my own self that I was struggling to find this bond until very very recently because now I am well and it is back again. I really feel for Sugar because I was fortunate to have bonded with ds1 in the womb and in the first few days after birth, it just left me.. but because I had experienced it, I knew what I was missing and I think it must be dreadful to be totally dead to that love.

There can be real sanctuary in mindfulness. A friend just mailed the following Rumi poem to me. Nothing directly to do with this thread but it comforts me and may interest a few on here:

"But listen to me.
For one moment, quit being sad.
Hear blossoms dropping their blessings around you."