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Mental health

Mother and baby unit??

305 replies

martha2013 · 04/05/2013 19:19

Does anyone have any experience of such places? I'm 39+3 weeks pregnant with my very much planned and wanted second child. I have a diagnosis of bipolar and due to risks to baby have recently stopped my anti-psychotic. My psychiatrist thinks my mood is becoming high. I disagree. She is talking about mother and baby hospital after birth. I'm terrified and thinking of doing a runner!

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dontrunwithscissors · 04/06/2013 00:24

Sorry to hear you had such a horrific time in hospital. I, too, would do anything to not have to be admitted, although my experiences were nothing like yours.

However (and I hope it doesn't come anyhwere near this for you), mother and baby units are nothing at all like regular psychiatric units. Small, quiet, and with only other women who are in very similar circumstances. As I say, I hope it doesn't come to that for you.

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working9while5 · 04/06/2013 01:06

Hi Martha

Remember some of the shame is the illness, too. Probably most of it. I told myself all those same stories, particularly about my parents. A lot of it caused me to isolate myself even further from sources of support... but I think the thing to remember here is that YOU are not isolating yourself as Snapcracklepop has said, it is the illness trying to isolate you... the illness sees fault in everything, fear in everything, hopelessness in everything. Those thoughts telling you again and again that this is you, when it's not.

I am a year down the line now and I have just started an NSPCC PND group for women who have had severe depression postnatally. As someone said at a session, very few people talk about things really feel when you are in the depths of despair. If people do talk about this postnatal mental illness, it's often in a cursory "I felt awful, I couldn't get out of bed, then I took the drugs and had some counselling and now I am all better!!!" sort of way.

It's difficult because there is no common currency of how to discuss these things. Right now, the current trend is to talk about the symptoms of the illness... oh I am so ill... my thinking is irrational... disordered.. etc... and in my service, there was a lot of labelling e.g. "intrusive thoughts", "catastrophising" etc... but actually there aren't words that adequately describe what it is really like and all of these are inadequate for the task. This makes for a lot of miscommunication between women and professionals I think and it sounds like you have had some horrendous experiences to boot which will compound these feelings of not being able to trust the professionals. Bottom line is, when you are dealing with something so intimate and basically being asked to plumb the depths of your soul, it isn't pleasant to share these thoughts or feelings with people who get paid to do it and can walk away at the end of the day when you can't. That's a reality. These are the times we live in... and though it might be better than when women were locked up with milk fever, it's still not ideal. There's still limited true understanding of the pain involved and ideally we would all be loved and supported and able to share openly with people who truly love us in a way that would hold our pain... but this isn't the case for very many so the professionals are there to keep us safe and on that path to recovery even if we might resent having to have them in our lives.

The most important reality is that the most crucial thing is to get well. There is nothing more important. The illness shouts no no no no no no no don't listen to that... but sometimes the grace lies in letting go. It's shit you need to be involved with services, but you do. It's shit you are having such horrible thoughts and overwhelming feelings but you are and the best thing for your daughter is to find some stability as fast as possible and that will mean working with the meds so you can get to a place where you can handle the rest of it. Right now, you have to hold on and keep breathing, keep putting one foot in front of the other.
It is the most vital part of this, and you do it on your own in some deep sense. You could have support coming out of your eyeballs but you have to submit inwardly to letting go of the control and of the stories about who you are and who you need to be. You have to allow yourself to be supported when cruelly, this illness is screaming at you "NO!!! YOU AREN'T WORTH IT!!!"

This is where you are... in all its entirety. With a beautiful baby but also a horrendous illness and all the feelings that both experiences can bring about in you. I think every woman with severe depression at this point would do ANYTHING to make it stop. That is why we end up so vulnerable and at risk... because sometimes the illness seems stronger. Only it isn't. You may not feel it, but you have space inside you for all these feelings and thoughts. Breathe into them. Make space for them. They are here. But so are your feelings of love for your baby. Hold tight to that. It is easier to move towards what you value. Your mind will always tell you that the most important task is to move away from what hurts... again, the grace here is in letting go, not paddling upstream.

The work you are doing in each day is worth a million times anything any job could ever be. This is the work of a lifetime. My therapist used to say that in the end of the day, you are in the trenches. The bravery you need to summon up when you are truly at the depths is no more or no less than the bravery a soldier in the trenches of WW1 would have felt, rushing into the enemy firing line. It's pretty huge. You have nothing to feel shame for, though your illness will tell you that you do.
Just hold tight.

Thinking of you a lot x

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martha2013 · 04/06/2013 21:19

Thank you. I'm really moved by your thoughtful replies . I don't think my response does them justice, I am taking on board what is said, I'm just very tired. We had the most challenging night so far last night, I have had no sleep since Sunday night which is hard. Everything feels compounded when I'm this tired.

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working9while5 · 04/06/2013 22:30

It is a really tough time with sleep between baby and illness. Hope the tide turns. How old is she now? It is so unsettled those first few weeks.

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martha2013 · 05/06/2013 07:49

She is 3 weeks nearly and is a little treasure. She feeds really well and is very contented mainly. It was 2 hourly through the night though and I couldn't get back to sleep in between so I feel exhausted again. My husband doesn't wake up and yet it's me doing breakfast/school run while he is in bed still. I think I will be glad when he is back at work.

Have an appt to discuss meds again today. I would prefer to be on depakote as that has the least side effects for me but I don't know how safe it is.

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working9while5 · 05/06/2013 08:52

Oh Martha I can identify with that. There were times I felt almost murderous towards dh at that early stage. We had a massive argument because he threw a hissy fit because he wanted to go to a friend's wedding all day and drink etc when both boys were waking. this was compounded by mh professionals talking about how "supportive" he was because he'd shown up to one appointment. It was written all over my notes that he was supportive which made me feel even more shit as if I deserved no better. I heard an awful lot about how tough it was for him but like you there I was getting up and doing this stuff when I felt like I had (at the very least) a giant boulder on my chest and it required superhuman strength. At six weeks I even took both boys back to Ireland on a ferry when I was convinced at that point that they were literally in mortal danger from contaminants. It was a nightmare.

The good news is that he did eventually cop himself on as I got well and was more able to insist that I wasn't doing it all. I would say ultimately it has been good for us because he does now take a lot more responsibility. He was always good at some things but he sort of wanted continual praise and approval for everything he did and I just didn't have the energy.

I'm so glad you are finding your wee girl a treasure. It makes it so much easier when you can access that at all.

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working9while5 · 05/06/2013 08:53

Oh and good luck with appointment. I've no advice on meds but hope they get it sorted for you.

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SnapCackleFlop · 05/06/2013 17:21

Came across this today and thought you might find it interesting
www.victoriamaxwell.com/resources.asp

Hope you can sort out something better support wise - i think i'd kill my dh if he was in bed sleeping while I cared for baby after a hard night!

I know this isn't a great solution but when I was really exhausted i'd take both dcs up to big bedroom and feed/sleep (safe co-sleeping) with baby while having tv / toys for older dd.

Take care. x

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Hoophopes · 05/06/2013 19:59

Hi can you tell your dh that you need him to do things, like school run etc if he is in bed ( if you were in hospital he would have to do everything after all!) could you tell MH team your dh not getting up and helping, they may be able to provide a support worker to help you?

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scottishmummy · 05/06/2013 20:19

does dh know you're struggling?does he know you were no compliant with med
why exactly is dh getting a nice lie in and you run around?he should get up and help
you both new parents could he help you more when on mat leave?

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working9while5 · 05/06/2013 21:28

Not sure why the compliance with meds came up there sm? Martha has said she is on Lexapro with negotiation with team upthread.
As I'm sure you are probably aware, there are a lot of women with mental health issues whose partners do sweet fa which compounds illness at these times. I'm guessing that as Martha has daily involvement from a mh team her dh will know of her issues, she has also been clear that she has had bipolar for ten years and that her family and friends are aware so let's not cod ourselves that dh is oblivious and thinking all is fine and dandy. Maybe he doesn't know the risks to bipolar women after pregnancy but I'll wager he might have had the opportunity to find that out for himself.

Look, my dh was useless with this and he is not usually a prick or a bad man in any way. I have met countless other women who have had similar experiences. Unfortunately a lot of women have to try and get through this without a lot of support even though it is a massive risk factor. A year down the line he has grown up a lot. He totally ignored all signs of depression and OCD first time around.

Martha, hope your med review went well. Thinking of you.

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scottishmummy · 05/06/2013 21:32

sharing tasks,open immunisation,and the dh taking in tasks will support op
at one point he wasn't aware how bad Martha felt or that noncompliance meds
I wonder if he knows how things impacting for op,maybe he needs to do school run and not remain asleep?

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scottishmummy · 05/06/2013 21:32

sharing tasks,open discussion,and the dh taking in tasks will support op
at one point he wasn't aware how bad Martha felt or that noncompliance meds
I wonder if he knows how things impacting for op,maybe he needs to do school run and not remain asleep?

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working9while5 · 05/06/2013 21:43

I don't know how it is for Martha's dh sm but my experience of it was that dh was somewhat avoidant of the situation and not accepting that it was really as severe as it was. Every professional I met I told them dh wasn't coping and despite the fact they should have no one ever offered a carer's assessment or dealt with it in any way. I started off being very open and communicating my needs but when it is not forthcoming and you are very unwell, it can be difficult to push the issue. I am in regular contact with a good 10-12 women who have had serious postnatal illness (both people with pre-existing mh conditions and not) and unfortunately it does seem that burying head in sand and not really picking up the slack without specifically being told to is not uncommon. Many of us also have had experience of psychs and others putting a lot of emphasis on how hard it must be for our dh's when really they are not doing a hell of a lot. I think it's a sort of protective avoidant reaction myself but it can be very difficult at the time.

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SnapCackleFlop · 05/06/2013 21:50

Scottishmummy - was compliance the word-for-the-day on your calendar this week? Lets all hope next week's is something less likely to alienate and offend.

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scottishmummy · 05/06/2013 21:52

refrain from having a go at me on a sensitive thread
it's not about you,not about me.
derailing is a bit off.v inappropriat

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working9while5 · 05/06/2013 22:03

That's the second time you have told someone on this thread that their reaction to your words is inappropriate sm. It is not a derailment and the op herself has indicated to you that professional speak is quite difficult and it clashes with where she is at. She has also sadly said she now doesn't feel safe to share her darkest thoughts here. I don't know anything about you sm but I have found some of your posts here to Martha a bit accusatory and I'm wondering what that's about. As you say, it's not about you or me. It's about supporting Martha who has had very dicey experiences with professionals at a time when she needs the support and empathy of people who understand having been through some of this. I think Martha is doing a pretty ace job to be honest. She has a three week old and is in the depths. It really is the most cruel time to be ill and I think I wouldn't be alone in feeling that it is something that it is hard for anyone who hasn't been there to fully understand. I get the impression sm that you think that there's a raft of supportive wonderful services out there just clamouring to help women 24-7 as are their partners but sadly the real world isn't quite so ideal.

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dontrunwithscissors · 06/06/2013 00:35

Well, SM has touched upon an important issue that I think is relevant to this thread if you're talking about the wider challenges of negotiating support within the MH system.

I (and it seems others) find the term "compliance" deeply offensive and am lost as to why MH professionals, in particular, can defend its use. It is defined as obeying, obliging, especially in a submissive way. Push that term on anyone with a modicum of independence and self-respect, and the chances are they will object. This highlights the disparity between the "patient-centered" rhetoric that flies around CMHT and the underlying values that follow a much older approach to treating mental health. I was fast to remind one particularly obnoxious psychiatrist that I am not "compliant", I choose to take medication.

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martha2013 · 06/06/2013 06:25

Thank you all for your replies.

I haven't really considered it before but I do struggle with the words non compliance. I know the planning and research I put in before choosing to have a second baby and my decision not to take an anti psychotic while bf was an informed one. Yes the professionals are not in agreement but it is not their struggle. I want to put my daughter first. That phrase makes me feel like a naughty child. Like my opinion is invalid. I completely agree with the pp who is able to express this much more eloquently. It does make me wonder what your experiences of mh care are sm?

My husband is a wonderful man, and I am really lucky to have him by my side. He struggles when I am unwell and does try to bury his head I think. He is working hard on renovating our house hence why he is tired but I am struggling with his lack of support through the night. My doctor spoke with him at length about protecting my sleep as it is a huge risk factor for me but he seems to have forgotten. He comes across to them as very caring and supportive so I darent complain. I've never felt that I deserve him.

This is the third consecutive night with very little sleep. Feeling pretty wired and disoriented. Was worrying yesterday that strangers in the street knew what I was thinking. I can recognise that's irrational but it felt very real at the time. I'm not sure how to pull myself out of this.

Still having daily contact with mh team and they do seem concerned. I definitely can't be honest with them as I know they will over react. They want to know how to help if i won't take meds. If only I had that answer I'd help myself!

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working9while5 · 06/06/2013 07:02

Martha, I totally understand where you are at. I have been there too. I also had immense difficulties with feeling I couldn't talk about how I was feeling honestly because of the medication issue.

The evidence based dose for severe OCD with visual imagery is 200mg sertraline (highest dose, sertraline not the best drug but only one for breastfeeding). I knew that after 100mg, some of the drug would go into my breastmilk and could lead to withdrawal. I just wasn't prepared to do it. So I wasn't honest about the imagery I was having - I was still seeing images of my children dead or dying which were deeply distressing but I was determined that I was going to maintain breastfeeding because I knew that it had been something that ultimately really supported my bond with ds1 and also supported my sleep. So it was a balancing act.. having obsessional thinking, there is no way of communicating to anyone the extent to which I agonised over this decision. There is no way to communicate that with a professional in a short appointment. This is what I meant when I said really that in the end, we all have to go it alone on some deep level no matter how open we are to professional involvement.

I also could have written what you wrote about my dh. I think that's essentially what I said to every professional too - I desperately told them that he was struggling and anxious but no one did the carer's assessment and I felt that I didn't deserve to push him and that the professionals would interpret me saying he wasn't being that great in some ways as just a symptom of depression and negative talk, One of the profs even gave HIM that "Living with a Black Dog" book and spent a whole session talking to him about how hard it was living with me while I sat there like a lump, thinking "do you realise he is doing nothing at home and falls asleep as soon as he gets in from work while I have to get on and do everything?". I just didn't feel there was a way of saying that because it would have caused tension with dh and they would have been dubious about it. Yet he totally bought into the idea he was my "carer" and that he was really stressed by the caring role.. I have no doubt he was terribly stressed by seeing me in distress and the fear of where it would take us and that this was a profoundly awful experience.. but he wasn't breaking his backside caring for me and I had no choice but to get on with things even when it was stressful beyond belief and not supportive for my mental health. This seems to be a fairly common story.

Are you having any psychotic symptoms or suicidal ideation Martha or anything serious like that? Acceptance and Commitment Therapy has really good empirical support in even brief sessions as a way of enabling you to cope with any symptoms and it drastically reduces hospitalisation admissions. It basically asks you to externalise the illness, recognise it is not YOU and put your values first. Accept the pain, Commit to Taking Positive Action on your Values and Take Action. There's more to it than that but it sounds to me as though that is what is getting you through so you are sort of doing it anyway. The idea is that you accept and don't struggle against the scary thoughts etc and breathe in and around them when they arise, try and visualise them as an object and befriend them while making contact with the present moment through breathing and just letting them pass on by, doing nothing with them. This is incredibly hard as it means you literally just let them there, you don't do this to feel better, you just accept that you'd rather feel those feelings than go against your higher values which in this case is breastfeeding your daughter and your love for your daughter.

Could you ask them about this - it's not just for psychosis, it's for all sorts of things so you could talk about this as a way around admitting things that will freak them out but ask them to investigate it and support you with it maybe?

The truth is that living with the most frightening thoughts is an act of immense bravery and courage and the fact you have been doing it is a testament to an incredibly strong will to breastfeed your baby. I would never have seen it like that but now a year down the line I look back and think shit, it really was dire... and I got up, I did breakfasts and tasks like you are doing even when I was literally having sometimes nonstop intrusive thoughts about finding the children dead and hadn't slept at all. There were times it wasn't ideal but I just kept plodding on with it and it did pass. I didn't shout or roar at them or hit them and even when ds2 started smiling and that itself acted as a trigger of fears that he would die, I just kept turning back to him again and again and smiling and willing my smile to be in my eyes even when it was intensely painful to do so. Now I see that as an act of courage and of love but at the time it just felt like a nightmare. I think

Hope you have a better day today x

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martha2013 · 06/06/2013 18:17

I am having fleeting thoughts of suicide but they are not consuming me. I am really exhausted though and desperate for sleep but my mind won't let me even if my daughter will.

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scottishmummy · 06/06/2013 18:43

it isnt my intention to offend the op,this thread has terms throughout that anyone can contest
language,diagnosis,and labelling are big issues in mental mental health
I don't want a helpful thread to be derailed,and I don't think this thread is place for exploration of terms.I'm happy to discuss elsewhere

I think the points about partners,are interesting and yes thought provoking

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SnapCackleFlop · 06/06/2013 20:52

Martha, I?m sorry you?re having a hard time but think you?re doing a fantastic job. I mentioned the Naomi Stadlen book up thread because it touches on the thoughts that so many mothers have about terrible things happening to their children ? it deals with this and how it can actually serve a useful function. I found this a much more about the book extremely helpful as I remember being horrified at some of the thoughts I was having after the birth of dd1. I hope this doesn?t come across as belittling your illness ? I?m worried that there is a sense in your posts that you think your children/family/partner are worse off for having you in their lives and I don?t think this is true at all. I want you to know that so much of this is experienced by lots of parents and the fact that your children have such a caring, loving and intelligent mum puts them in the very fortunate category!

I also wondered how things are going medication wise for you? I meant to say before that it?s entirely possible to take medications later on in the breastfeeding relationship that cannot be taken when a baby is a tiny newborn. I?m a LLL Leader and would be so happy to help you down the road (if you would like me to) to find out whatever information about different drug options that would be appropriate as your daughter gets older.

I know how tough it is to be really really exhausted and it?s especially important for you to get rest to make sure you keep well. Is it possible to arrange someone to take the children out for a walk or to the park to allow you to sleep for a few hours? Is there anything medication wise that you can take to help you have a rest or is that something you?d rather not do?

You come across as a very likeable, intelligent, caring and loving person. I feel sad that you?re having to deal with this rotten illness that you don?t deserve. You have friends on here who care and want to help and I think you do in real life too. I respect how hard you?ve worked to inform yourself regarding the options for medication and treatment during pregnancy and breastfeeding. I know how very difficult this is.

Please keep on posting here if you feel you have the energy.

Take care. x

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SnapCackleFlop · 06/06/2013 20:58

I also want to add an apology if any other posters felt the thread was derailed earlier. I found I was wincing at the tone of SM?s posts and hoped that when another poster said as much before it might have brought an end to it. I found the language used incredibly disempowering and felt concerned at how inappropriate and saddening it was given the nature of this thread.

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working9while5 · 06/06/2013 22:49

I didn't think it was derailed. I originally posted about it being inappropriate because I felt sm was unintentionally invalidating Martha's experience. Sm it's not about contesting it to have a go really, it's about just sticking up for the idea that some of this language really drags you down and pigeonholes you when you are at your most vulnerable and already feel a loss of sense of self. When I said this earlier you said I was just generalising/talking about myself etc but really I was trying to pick up and support what I heard in Martha's posts and which SnapCackleFlop also did. It isn't personal, believe me. It's just when you say about language diagnosis labelling etc being "big issues" in mh there's a big difference between contesting it around the staffroom table and experiencing it as your life being reduced to a catalogue of symptoms. I say this openly to you as someone who prior to this was involved in mh services on the other side of the table. It's been an eye opener.

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