What could be different in mental health care, what helps, and what have you found to be useful reading?

[OwFriggingOw]

First off - this is a thread inspired by another thread - not about another thread.

I am a lecturer who teaches mainly MH nursing students, but also Adult, Child and Learning Disability field nurses about MH, and also occasionally medical students. I have no agenda for this thread bar a genuine desire to listen, share ideas, and have an open discussion about what is helpful / less so. I worked in NHS MH for 13 odd years.

In case anyone links the other threads that inspired this thread - I have been comissioned to edit a book about people's experiences (service users and carers / family / friends) within MH services and with MH issues. NONE OF THE POSTS HERE WILL BE USED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM FOR THIS BOOK. You have my ABSOLUTE word on that. Similarly, NONE of the posts here will be used in any of my teaching.

My aim in starting this stems from several PM's and several on-thread comments about how this would be useful/ I hope it can be a helpful, supportive and productive meeting place for thoughts and ideas about what people have found helpful with regards MH care / services / support (statutory and non statutory) and what has been less helpful. Most importantly with regards the less helpful - what can be done differently?

And - beacuse I like books - maybe we can share reading ideas :)

Would it be helpful if I shared parts of my long thread from earlier regarding what I see as needed, without any other details from the thread?

Thanks so much for posting about the London Buddhist Centre, yellowraincoat. I have been meaning for a while to dip my toe into meditation/mindfulness practices and this looks perfect

oh thank you
just shows how the written word can be read by others or in your own mind.
I felt nervous posting that is all ....... daft bat eh?

I am reading and learning .
Some wonderful links and thoughts .

will go ack and read thread, didn't want to be influenced by other posts.

I had an AMAZING experience of Mental Health support, eventually,
but this was because of a catalogue of errors.

so imo, there are things that can be good.
telling someone that they have 6 sessions of CBT available puts a pressure into an already tense situation.
My GP was brilliant, pressed the panic button in a calm and supportive manner and within 24 hours I had the community MH team sitting in my kitchen helping me, they came every day for 2 weeks whilst we waited for me to see someone at the hospital.
that was when it went wrong. however, because I was then lost inbetween 2 computer systems, I was picked up under the "we failed you so you can have whatever you like" system. As a result I have on the NHS received 3 years of therapy with a private psychotherapist 2 hours a week.

It has done it!! it has fixed me. we were able to go into every corner and sort out all the cobwebs and skeletons. But also to help ease me back into life, being a hands on mum and partner again.

I know that budgets are stretched, however, as I have had proper thorough support I haven't seen my GP for 6 months, I am unlikely to need that level of care again. Money well spent, DH is able to be at work more without having to rush home to look after me.

Anyway, thanks for reading and for starting this thread. will now go and realise I have mad a tit of myself as things have probably moved on!!

'I have lots of insight and I have capacity. So while I am unwell and make unwise decisions about some things, I can still recognise the effects of inappropriate treatment and comments and I have the right to advocate for myself to receive suitable care.'

Good for you.

Now spare a thought for those who do not have insight and who cannot recognise the effects of good treatment, let alone bad.

Advocating for yourself on MN is not likely to improve your chances of receiving suitable care. What you advocate for yourself may not be what someone else needs.

Every single case is different and what is fine and appropriate care for one might not be appropriate for someone else. You have to accept that what is not fine and appropriate care for one might be perfectly adequate for someone else. You are all kidding yourselves if you think you speak for others.

What we have is a collection of individual complaints by individual people because what they received was found by them not to be helpful.

Tough cases make bad laws.

The fact that the thread is addressed to mumsnetters and not professionals involved in service provision, civil servants, researchers, or official patient representatives invites extrapolation from the individual to very general complaints and suggestions. What has basically been asked is 'what went wrong for you and what could have been better for you?'. Too many people here have taken that and run with it, suggesting that their experience is universal and that there is a major, systemwide problem that needs to be fixed and the massive generalisations have gone unchallenged.

'What could be different in mental health care, what helps, and what have you found to be useful reading? -- the title itself is an invitation for disaster without a disclaimer on every page

• that people should feel confident to go and get the help that is available, warts and all,
• that there is a good chance it will have a life enhancing effect,
• that families should feel confident in making the conscientious decision to have a relative sectioned,
• and the caveat to posters not to generalise from their own personal experiences or make irresponsible statements about doctors and staff and facilities.

OOH Bassett, I love JKZ!! I wonder if MN could get him for a webchat???

MNHQ what d you think??

NeverKnowinglyAbleToFlickFlack that is brilliant and sounds just how it SHOULD be for everybody (bar the admin cock ups of course)

neverknowlingly - thank you for that post, sounds like you have a largely great experience especially with the, GP, Community team and the talking therapy - that's great and really positive :)

i jus think that when time limitations are put on things when you are first refered for moderate to issues is SO wrong. I know there are financial issues but it is as with so many things short sighted, getting people healthy and functioning members of society is worth ALOT

going back some way to when we were talking about charters, some digging about shows that some authorities do have patients charters within the MH services. for example:

www.lampdirect.org.uk/information/publications/charterformentalhealth

The Charter for Mental Health is a clear set of statements for service users and carers about what they can expect from local mental health services in Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. For staff it provides one set of consistent values, making clear what is expected of them and what they can expect from their organisations.

The Charter in brief says you can expect to:
Get the right treatment
Have your views and preferences valued and taken into account
Be treated with respect, dignity and compassion
Get good information to make informed choices
Be treated respectfully
Have your carers views respected
Have a written care plan

The Charter defines a common, shared value base, regardless of the variety of different perspectives on mental health. It was launched in 2008 and has been siged by representatives from the City and County Councils, Primary Care Trusts, the Voluntary Sector Partnership and Leicestershire Partnership NHS Trust.

and this one for cardiff:

Adult Mental Health Charter

Charter for Mental Health

Every person in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan has the right to mental health services that:

1. Make a positive difference to each person they serve.

1. Stop doing things that are not working.

1. Are guided by the individual?s views about what they need and what helps them.

1. Treat everyone as a capable citizen who can make choices and take control of their own life.

1. Work with respect, dignity and compassion.

1. Recognise that mental health services are only part of a person?s recovery.

1. Recognise, respect and support the role of carers, family and friends.

1. Communicate with each person in the way that is right for them.

1. Understand that each person has a unique culture, life experiences and values.

10. Give people the information they need to make their own decisions and choices.

11. Support their workers to do their jobs well.

12. Challenge ?us and them? attitudes both within mental health services and in the wider society.

www.cvmhdp.org.uk/content/public/news_and_events/default.asp?id=230

both excellent. maybe this is something to bear in mind when accessing any localised services- google your trust to see if they have a patients charter.

Couldn't resist popping back.

FlickFlack did you know Jon Kabat Zinn and his dp wrote a book on mindful parenting? That would be a very good thing to hear about on MN. But the irony might just make me implode. Often when I'm on MN I'm not being remotely mindful and am neglecting my dc... Still, would be absolutely great to have the amazing Kabat Zinns on MN!

OOOOoohhh I didn' know that... I have a level of adoration for him that is wholey inappropriate. there is a fabulous youtube talk from him at google, have you ever seen it??

neverknowly- agree. investing in therapy that is not limited to 6 weeks and is seen as an investment in the person as a whole would save a fortune in potential work days lost, possible social services budgets, inpatient treatment, drug budgets, aftercare etc. and most importantly reduce risk of relapses and suicides etc

That's really interesting Aesop thanks - I should imagine that publishing charters like those in every waiting room or GP or wherever may well reduce a lot of the fear people can feel when encountering MH services for the first time perhaps? They seem to me to be considerate, forward thinking and positive anyhow!

Sharkey:

You have just stated without presenting any evidence to back it up your belief that MH services treat far too many people badly and you have extrapolated from what I assume is your own personal experience what other people must be made to feel by their encounters with MH professionals.

I feel this post needs to be challenged as an example of projection from one experience to a universal truth about mental health services and indeed what other people are feeling.

Ow, what is your opinion on a post like this that conflates individual with general experience and where the poster appears to claim ability to discern what other people must be feeling?

Is this what you had in mind for the thread?

never seen one in an nhs setting ow although i am sure there must be some that display them? i have seen them in community projects, therapeutic communities and even in broadmoor hospital.

I've stated repeatedly what my initial aims were for starting the thread math.

I've found this thread to be very interesting and useful.
Math you seem to be upset the thread didn't go as you predicted and are now trying to de-rail it. People are just chatting here, people can post their experiences if they like. Why are you the police of Mn all if a sudden?
Stop reading it if you don't like it

We are all adults. I think you are getting far too emotionally involved and should let people talk about whatever they want to

'WIth regards not challenging - I have been very careful not to inflame or derail the thread by agreeing or disagreeing with certain negative experiences. I have tried to turn each post into something to think about, and to acknowledge people's experiences as being their own, and their right to post about their experiences.'

I think you should have challenged a good few posts, and a desire not to derail is not good enough as an excuse not to, for a professional, and neither is the wishy washy idea that on a public forum people should feel free to air their own personal experiences of MH services in the interest of contributing to a discussion of MH services in general, with no caveat to possible lurkers.

Nor is it ok to try to present a thread as some sort of positive MH outreach where people's experiences are validated. You are steering into highly unethical territory there.

Again, what happened to 'First do no harm'?

math

To be clear, I do not use my experience to be a universal truth. I do not need to produce evidence that other people have been treated badly. Yes, I use my experience to come to the conclusion that one can feel useless. I assume others that have been treated badly will feel similar, as I also assume they will not be best pleased. I could count, if you prefer, the amount of people on this thread who were dissatisfied ( as evidence they exists).

And if I am discerning how people will feel, then could the same not be said of those who assume that people will be upset by this thread, for example?

Apologies for the derailment.

Wow , incredible posts while my pc froze again ...
.
Thank you for generous help ,harriethespy , ... will look up your suggestions asap and am eagerly following all comments on mindfulness
Thank you Perry , very helpful to me

kizzie- that has been my experience also with triggers - thank you
for articulating it -ther posts on Mn have interested me in mindfulness
Thank you for best description I have read of how our views on serious matters may be invalidated when we are in emotional distress

Thank you for very powerful post , fluffy. Agree with so much of your and your description of the helps me understand services better

NeverKnowinglyAbleToFlickFlack, I am so glad you eventually received a better service as you had been failed - how can people in my position access it , as my GP feels defeated by stonewalling by local mh services too !
You are encouraging me to persevere .

Thank you for the charter & other resources, aesops

Sorry for inarticulacy but feel very positive

< dreams of expressing self like Shakey as agrees with every word >

I am entitled to post what I feel might be useful just as you are DollyTwat.

My opinion of how the thread would go has been amply confirmed.

People cannot make generalisations from their own personal experiences to the entire MH system, from their doctor to all doctors or even 'some' doctors.

People who do so should be challenged because what we claim to be dealing with here is reality, is it not?

If it is indeed reality, then let's keep it real.

Let's stop extrapolating, and saying we believe this or that without presenting any evidence, and let's stop assuming we know what other people feel just because we feel that way. Let's stop assuming that because we had a problem it is one that needs fixing on a national scale.

If Ow refuses to challenge posts that tend that way, then I will.

I do not need to produce evidence that other people have been treated badly.

Yes you do, Sharkey. Either that you have to state 'This is my opinion and I have no evidence to back it up', or 'I am pulling this one straight out of my arse'.

Yes, I use my experience to come to the conclusion that one can feel useless.
I have not said anything about what you may conclude from your own experience.

I assume others that have been treated badly will feel similar, as I also assume they will not be best pleased
That is where you jump into the deep end.
You cannot read people's minds or discern their feelings or assume anything about their conclusions based on their experiences, because they are not you and their experiences are not yours.

I could count if you prefer, the amount of people on this thread who were dissatisfied ( as evidence they exists).
You cannot assume that there are any more unsatisfied customers than you can count on this thread.

Does anybody want to start a support thread where we can post without being told we're not allowed to talk about stuff?