Blood sugar diet and fast800 thread 19

[thenewaveragebear1983]

Here’s the new thread for the BSD followers, plus those following the Fast800 plan. Everyone is welcome to join us. Here’s a quick recap!

The BSD/fast 800 is a low carb, Mediterranean style way of eating, with the primary aim of stabilising your insulin response when you eat. You achieve this by: eating fewer carbs, cutting out sugar and sweet tasting foods including most fruit, and by following a low calorie plan that reduces your visceral fat meaning that everything functions more effectively. Less insulin means less fat storage (in a nutshell, although more info can be found on this online). The diet was designed to reduce T2 diabetes symptoms (or even reverse it entirely) but can also be used for weightloss.

Eat:
Meats and fish
Oils
Eggs
Full fat dairy products
Nuts, seeds
Pulses/ beans
Veg that grows above ground
Limit fruit: apples, pears, berries- in moderation, with meals, with fats

Occasional alcoholic drinks allowed (spirits, red wine are preferable to beer, lager, etc)
Tea and coffee, herbal tea etc.
And water- drink lots of water!

Avoid
sugar, sweets, and ‘naturally occurring sugars’ such as fructose, maltose, honey, agave, puréed dates etc....

Potatoes of any variety
Pasta
Rice
Breakfast cereals (occasional steel cut oats are ok)
Breads/ flour based products

Exercise:
Michael Moseley recommends HIIT workouts to increase calorie burn and help to tone up, and recommends walking more (increasing your steps weekly until you hit around 10000 a day)

Mindfulness
MM also suggests a programme of mindfulness, meditation, practised for a few minutes each day.

How to follow the plan:
Fast800: follow the plan above, sticking to 800 calories every day for 2 weeks. Ideal to give your weightloss a real kick start, plus improve your insulin function and reduce your sugar cravings.
8 weeks BSD- 8 weeks, follow the guidelines above- 800 calories a day. You don’t need to count carbs grams because the diet is naturally self limiting.
BSD 5:2- for a more leisurely weightloss journey, or as maintenance, or once you’ve done an 8 week stint or 2 weeks of Fast800, you can play around with a combination of increased calorie count, ‘free eating’ and fasting days (800 cals) until you achieve your goals. Many of our long standing members now follow this approach.

You can stop 800 calorie days at any time once you achieve your goal. It’s advised to limit yourself to 12 weeks maximum at 800 calorie days, but you should get excellent results in 8 weeks. Depending on your weightloss goals, you can do further ‘rounds’ of either the 8 week BSD or the Fast800.

Time restricted eating/TRE :
In addition to the fast800/ BSD plan you can incorporate a strategy of time restricted eating. Put simply, this means only eating between certain times each day to maximise your fasting time. TRE has shown to have positive results for weightloss, even if there is no calorie restriction, and increases insulin sensitivity/reduces insulin resistance. At first, try for a clear 12 hours without food each 24 hours, increasing to 16:8 as you get more adept at fasting.

Some useful links

Meal planning ideas thread
Blood sugar diet recipe thread and menu planner meal planning thread

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=healthyeater.com/important-tool-weight-loss" target="_blank">TDEE calculator to calculate your daily calorie requirement

information about the ‘whoosh’ phenomenon

These recipes are from this book:

www.amazon.co.uk/Type-Diabetes-Cookbook-recipes-family/dp/191090497

It's a really useful book actually, and because it's a family meal planner it had lots of batch cook/freeze half/ make one base and adapt into 2 meals type recipes.
My only criticism is that it's quite heavy on the xylitol/sweetener for some recipes, but again, if you want/need eg a cake, you might as well make a low carb one.,

Estimating 1350 and 48g carbs.
I know I had 1200 and 40 carbs but I had a few olives and a taste of DH food and a bite of his icecream...so I’ve upped it by 150 and 8g carbs.
It’s fine for a Saturday seeing as I usually eat everything in sight. But it’s also not great. Expect a gain tmrw.

That's good @Cream123, well done

An ok day for me, didn't cal count, and meals have been on plan. No pudding or heavy carbs, but realistically my cals are high (tdee) and I have also done very few steps.

Tomorrow I will be back on plan, we are going for a long run (12-13 km) in the morning and then will try to cut my carbs right back.,dinner will be roast beef and veg. Hopefully leftovers will do a few days of the week as well.

I haven't planned my menu yet but I really do need to actually stick to my plan, my menu was great last week but by Wednesday I'd crashed out. I actually think we've had some sort of virus this week (not THE virus!) but we've all had 2 days of sheer exhaustion and headaches. Feeling a lot perkier today.

It's just sooooo depressing that every week I start with such good intentions and every single week I crash and burn. Something always comes up. I always keep trying but never quite manage it., I imagine if I have a reasonable day tomorrow I'll end the week on a v small loss, but it's quite soul destroying to have some really amazing days and then some absolutely awful days to completely cancel them out.

I won't lie. Lockdown life is really getting to me now and I'm struggling.

Morning. Nice to wake up on a Sunday not hungover! Plan today
Monday yog and berries
Lunch no idea as at my aunts and she’s leaving food in the garden for us to eat and take home but I’ll have no carbs if possible!
Dinner smoked salmon salad (needs finishing today!)

Black coffees today!

Morning!

Bear sorry you are finding things tough at the moment. Lockdown is rubbish and j think everyone is struggling. Be kind to yourself. I believe stress gets in the way of weight loss too. I wonder about researching foods to boost mood, and then putting lots of bsd friendly ones into your plan. It might shift the focus from being good/bad to making positive choices if that makes sense?

Cream have a lovely day, hope there are some low carb options. To be honest visiting people is going to be tough on this woe I think.
I am weighing everyday. Blip yesterday after an off counting day on Friday but back on track now. I suspect this week's weightless will be only 1lb which is disappointing but I will koko. Lots of the graphs on previous threads have reminded me of that, plus I wonder if I am due a whoosh. I had melanzane parmigiana last night which I would really recommend if you want something that feels really treat like. It also meant I wasn't sad not to be eating the sourdough pizza I made for everyone else!

Plan today:
Lunch salad with eggs, blue cheese and olives. A few blueberries.
Dinner- chicken wrapped in bacon with cauli rice and greens followed by Yog and berries.
Good luck everyone!

Had a quick Google and mood boosting food = berries, oily fish, nuts and seeds, oats, coffee, dark choc, beans a lentils, saurkraut, mushrooms, quinoa, leafy greens and vitamin c.
You could make some delicious options focused on these!

Morning. I agree it is good to wake up without a Hangover; I only drank a few g&t last night and drank several pints of water before bed so I feel quite fresh today. Weighed in at 10.10.4 so I'm actually potentially recording a small loss this week (practically unheard of these days) and that's motivated me a bit to try for a really low carb day today. It's a while since I've ended a weekend on a loss.

So today: running this morning. I'd like to do yoga as well as I'm feeling quite achy and tight. Food will be roast beef and veg tonight (maybe a Cali/broccoli cheese) and I feel quite motivated to try to fast until then but realistically after running I will eat something, maybe tuna salad,

I need to plan my menu for the week, and I'm going to use the book recipes again as a base because I've been really impressed with the ones I've tried.

Well done @thenewaveragebear1983 the main thing is u keep going and eventually it will move down. We all have off days and rubbish days and it’s hard to stick to plan on those days esp of eating boosts ur mood (which it def does mine) . Fingers crossed the loss keeps you going.
I stayed the same to be expected from yest glad wasn’t a gain. Didn’t fast today as we off early am already!

👋 Sunday morning! A general malaise settled over me yesterday. Not helped by leptin research (not in the right headspace to have the insulin model on which Fast800 is based challenged...), And listening to the secret slimming podcast. @thenewaveragebear1983 I think you recommended it and I loved it - binged does episodes on my long walk, but it contributed to that malaise! When I sat down 6 weeks ago, I called this effort the ‘Never again plan’ - and the podcast reaffirmed that, but also made me think of the uphill challenge that food is for me! Ended the day in 1038 cals - as I have stuck religiously to 800 a day, that felt like a failure, but also needed! All on plan. Just more of it.

Anyway - woken up in a much better place. Eldest DD requested lasagna today, so am experimenting with a half and half - half using pasta and half with aubergine layers. Will report back. Also made the goats cheese frittata today for our day out (! A day out!). Although I am agitating for the end of lockdown, I’m also a bit terrified. In lockdown I’ve had zero social occasions to derail me. No work trips. Worries about taking this woe into normal life. I suppose it will be a learning curve.

So closing out week six with bang on 10kg lost. 5 inches off waist. And the longest without booze since I was about 17. BMI also bang on 28.

Am signing up to another 2 weeks of Fast800, 12-6, no booze, no snacks. Let’s see what happens.

Thank you all for sharing and your candour and warmth. I love this thread 😍

@thenewaveragebear1983 our of interest - what is your plan for maintenance? If you’re not losing on 800 a day, does that suggest you’ll gain if you start eating more? I’m also terrified of that, tbh.

@fufulina I love the secret slimming podcast but I really really don't like the Facebook groups. It's funny because it's a bit like a social experiment playing out in front of our eyes on there and you can literally see it happening. Why we (women) find it hard to lose weight. The Facebook group is a group of mostly women all celebrating the ridiculous rubbish they always eat, and the falling off the wagon, and the 'oh I always fail at every diet, I can't control myself' mentality and it actually makes me quite sad because the 'key players' on there (not the presenters so much, but the dominant voices from the group) are clearly trying to lose weight. But then are quite publicly sabotaging themselves, and dressing it up as 'accountability' when in fact it's seeking solace that someone else is falling off the wagon too. It's a shame because it could be a really helpful forum. I have often said that the 'gin and cupcakes' revolution of recent years has done absolutely nothing for women's health, and it's in a similar vein. I do love the podcast though!

Re maintenance. I managed to maintain for over a year by pretty much still trying to lose weight and failing. I know that sounds miserable, and yes I suppose I never really got maintenance sorted. I was always chasing my target weight and as a result would still restrict carbs (the big 5) but I think over time I have a) increased calories too much and b) reintroduced sugar and that's why now I am no longer maintaining but have regained enough that means I need to actually be on plan again.

I need to look with fresh eyes I think; I really enjoyed going back to Basics last week but things got in the way, but I'm going to try again this week as I know it works if I do it consistently. In terms of maintenance, when I do finally get back there, for me it will always need to be a significant reduction in carbs, and sugar. I really am so sensitive to it, plus I am a chronic emotional eater and I think that going forward, in order to properly (effortlessly ) maintain, I need to deal with some of that emotional baggage because 9 times out of 10 is is emotional eating that sets me off.

Thanks @thenewaveragebear1983 - I really appreciate the detailed answer! What is niggling at the back of my mind is that I have totally lost sight of what a ‘normal’ amount of food is. So when I think of maintenance, I’m thinking of my ridiculous eating that saw me 30kg overweight and how I can possibly do that and still maintain. And of course the whole point is that I can’t! I need to get my head around permanently eating less. And like you emotional eating and sugar are my downfall.

I think that I have just got so used to eating! I know that sounds obvious, but if I look at my (super slim) MIL - she eats so little. Her life doesn’t revolve around meals. I used to think of it as ‘competitive not eating’ (a strained relationship, LOL), but actually her eating habits and mindset are so much healthier than mine. In a nutshell I suppose maintenance is way fewer calories. Obviously! But it is coming to grips with that and accepting that food is not a panacea.

To your many previous points - the physical side is almost incidental. This is a mental reprogramming.

Ah the flipping weekends. I had a plan... fasted til socially distant birthday BBQ at 3 - plan was one burger in bun, sausage on side, my home made coleslaw I knew was ok and salad and a small piece of cake. Not perfect but ok... but then we didn’t eat until near 6 and I succumbed to a few glasses of Prosecco and ate about twice as much as intended. Have another BBQ today. But I’m driving so no booze so will do better! It’s hard when it’s a bit out of your control - when and what you’re being served. And I really hate making any sort of fuss. I did have a lovely time tho.

I have no social eating plans next weekend so I am determined for a good two weeks no cheating! Last weekend I let bad weekend habits slip into the week with a bit of chocolate here, a few crisps there. But not this time!!

Ps. fufulina and thenewaveragebear1983 agree with your musings. That’s why 5/2 only worked as maintenance for me after a while. I was using fast days to enable unhealthy eating rest of the week. I just didn’t really want to change. Too obsessed with food. Clearly still am. But I’m trying at least!

Hello @fufulina, I share all your fears about maintenance!

I did 7 weeks on BSD, losing 20 lbs. I was then finding it too hard to stick to 800, and consistently overeating, which I took to mean I had had enough of the extremely restrictive part that is BSD. Remember that Moseley and the Newcastle team designed this as a short sharp shock to get rid of internal fat and lower blood sugars quickly. It is amazing if you can stick to it for the 8 or 12 weeks as it is by nature a VLCD!

I've now moved to traditional 5:2 to lose about another 4 stone I have left, and have done 3 weeks. It takes a bit of getting used to to eat more than we have trained ourselves to on BSD, and I've had a couple of instances where carbs too over.

But, it's about continuing to retrain yourself. I'm sticking to TDEE on 5 days, 500 cals on 2 days. I'm not counting carbs, but not eating pasta, bread sugar etc. Then in a few weeks I'll reintroduce small amounts of these. If this causes a binge and gets out of hand I'll reduce again.

We've spent years getting in these bad habits, and putting this weight on. It'll take time to reform good habits and get to a new sensible way of eating.

Just to say it is working, as I'm at the moment I'm still losing 2lbs a week on 5:2.

I think as well that once the initial rapid losses slow down, in theory what you're left with is a plan where you can lose 2lbs a week but it feels easy, you don't want sugary stuff, so you don't miss it (as opposed to SW where the focus is on getting as much sugar in within your syn allowance and then finding it a horrible chore). In theory after you're really in the swing of the plan, you eat high fat nutritious meals and then you don't think about food til your next meal. This is much much easier to do when you've broken your carb cravings. (Also, Bear in mind that 2lb a week is over 100lbs in a year, so not to be sniffed at. That's over 7 stone)

Also, can't remember who mentioned leptin? I think the two (insulin control/leptin control) do go hand in hand and you can incorporate understanding of both in your plan. I'm convinced it's more than insulin for me. One interesting point I read was that the body's main aim is Homeostasis (staying the same) - blood glucose goes up, insulin brings it down, dehydrated= thirst etc it's designed to pull it back to 'normal'. Leptin does exactly that as well. Massive drop in fat (resulting in hormonal upheaval) = leptin claws it back. Even if our 'normal' is not our personal ideal (eg we're overweight). So what we have to do gradually over time is reduce that normal so that the level it tries to claw us back to is lower. In which case, yo-yoing around the same weight, up down the sane few pounds is clearly an essential part of that process, frustrating as that may feel. And obviously leptin resistance occurs, so we have more leptin than we need, resulting in clawing back more than we actually lost in the first place.

If I look at my data for the last few months, since 1st April my average calorie burn daily is 2542, but in addition to that I've gained 7lbs (so an additional 24000 calories) - now there's NO WAY that for nearly 3 months I've eaten 2800+ calories every day. I may have not been on plan, but that's off the scale. Plus I've had lots of days where I know I've been on plan and 1200 max cals. So something else must be at work here. Leptin? Maybe! I'm going to read a bit today and have a muse....!

It seems there is a situation where eating too low a calorie diet for too long has an effect on metabolism, which is what happened to some of the "biggest loser" people.

Jason Fung talks about it at the start of this video:

@NathanNathan that's interesting, I loves Jason Fung's work I will watch later! With the biggest loser I think that's where they were effectively in negative calories though for a prolonged period, eg, eating 1200 cals a day but working out every day and also having a high BMR anyway due to their starting weight. Mosley does challenge the whole starvation diet thing because fast800 is nutritionally sound and also because he specifically suggests hiit exercise to preserve muscle. I don't think I've been eating that few calories to cause starvation mode, but I don't think I've eaten enough to warrant a 7lb gain either! I should go on that old show Secret Eaters (been watching reruns of that on YouTube this week!) maybe my grazing is more calories than I realise

Oh sorry bear that wasn't directed at you, it was more on the maintenance conversation I was waffling on about upthread as I became very disheartened when I read about biggest loser people lowering their metabolism and not being able to maintain.

Morning everyone, this is a busy thread, look forward to catching up on it.

PhoenixMama thanks for tip, I have opened a new notebook (special hardback beauty) and it is now my food and drink diary. I prefer pen and paper to apps generally. My DH despairs.

thenewaveragebear1983 yeah lockdown is an odd one, I thought it would really suit me as I love staying at home with nothing in the diary and we have a big garden. Actually the uncertainty gets to you after a while.

Stuck to my plan yesterday and lost another 1 1/2 lbs. Week 1 is great but I know it will slow down.

B Coffee
L Celery soup
D Roast chicken and veg
2 glasses of wine

@NathanNathan that's ok just musing really! I would love to think that my calorie intake had been low enough but sadly I think it's more the opposite...!!

Thanks @NathanNathan and @thenewaveragebear1983 - I also don’t know if Biggest loser did low carb? I think much of the insulin model which supports the Fast800 theory is that high insulin in effect ‘locks in’ fat stores, so despite low cal (not low carb), the body can not access energy so lowers BMR to cope.

I’m also reading the art and science of low carbohydrate living, which is very compelling (as is Jason Fung), on how we have evolved to eat - mostly not all the time, certainly not grazing, and mostly high fat. And those times of no food, we would use our fat stores. But refined carbs, sugar, regular eating throws that all up in the air.

@thenewaveragebear1983 that 7lb gain would fox me. Unless your TDEE is significantly lower/carbs higher than you thought/calorie counter not accurate? But I agree - I’d want to know WTF?!

Thanks for the heads up on maintenance @Nathan - that gives me some comfort that I’m not shafting myself! Although TBF - 30kg overweight was the very definition of shafting myself.

I think biggest loser, and so many other diet shows, advocate the 'healthy balanced diet' of mostly whole grain carbs, low fat, occasional treats. I watch a lot of diet shows (it's my guilty pleasure, I like nothing more than a Sunday afternoon on the sofa watching old diet shows like secret eaters, supersize super skinny, etc etc ) but even the modern ones like Tom Kerridge still promote this. When I first read Jason Fung I just couldn't compute how the two could be so different; how can the common advice be so wrong?

Catch up later
But lunch is carb overload and no other options
Will skip dinner