5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

bug I feel your pain re: hormones but enjoy your birthday celebrations

Oh badger that is rubbish, can you turn it into a mini fd?

Well done snail

I can report a successful sub tdee nfd today feel's good to be back in control... fd tomorrow, any other Tuesday fasters?

Well done, fasters !

Just poking my nose round the door.... I have been very very bad the last 2 weeks... I'm scared to weigh myself... I'm going to read this thread to motivate myself. scuttles off shame-faced

No wait, come back Mickeymacca. No shame here, don't you know it's against the rules? :) FWIW, and as you'll see when you catch up, a few of us have had a wobbly few weeks but are back on track again.

My nose was poking in just to say kitchen closed D1 of B2B at about 530.

aw thanks weaz . well done with your FD that's great! I'm going to do a FD tomorrow I need to get back on track badly!

Don't worry, Mickey We don't have shame and guilt here, just support
Most people have had a wobble or several
2 weeks isn't long enough to do real damage, anyway - soon mended

You've done well to come back to the WOE 

Plan your next FD, keep to the 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs and you'll soon be back on track

Well done in your FD, pop and good luck on FD2 today

Good luck, Tuesday fasters !

43 - It’s good to see you back. Sometimes a fresh start can make all the difference. Is your DH supportive? STS is really good, you may have been more conscious about food choices than you thought.

BCF - I’d love to say it’s the bad rain that’s out me off running. But the reality is I have a treadmill in my garage with loads of other equipment. I have 2 heaters out there 2 fans and a AC unit so there really is no excuse. But made a start yesterday 3 Miles. I need to work on my breathing today. I didn’t work particularly hard but my heart rate quickly went upto 180+ when it’s usually 150-160 absolute max.

Snail - That’s rubbish, I hope your FD went alright for you in the end.

Clutter - Pleased your back, and that’s the most important thing. Is it the FDs or NFDs your having a problem staying in control with? Can we help? The water will most definitely help although that does sound quite a lot.

Badger - I hope your FD went well.

Bug - You will be fine, I’ve found even if your eating out a couple of times a week (sometimes it’s unavoidable) a FD usually sees you right, if I’ve gone way OTT I do occasionally throw in a second FD and that puts me back in happy weight and it’s no biggie. It’s hard not to chill, I’m a worrier but honestly anything can be undone with a FD. Yes your weight will definitely fluctuate after a big meal but I do find that naturally decreases the next day.

Clutter - Do you use MFP? Do you snack a lot? I’m wondering if a week of solid eating with no junk may help you? Also some people need rewards non food rewards would that help you? I have a list of little items for a few different milestones to spur me on.

Mickey - Honestly no judgment here. I know how you feel re getting back on the scales but sometimes it helps and isn’t as bad as what you think. Can we help at all?

Good luck to all the fasters today.

Morning all, can I join you?! I've been doing the 5:2 for 2 weeks now, and I'm still struggling to find my feet... I fast on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and I find it tough. Not so much the hunger, but I get in such a crappy mood, which must be linked (I reckon 'hangry' is the best term to describe it ). My poor DH and DCs need to stay out of my way if they don't want to get an earful, and it's not fair on them... any ideas on how to manage this?! I'm starting to dread my fasting days, which is not the idea! I don't want more stress in my life.

Also, how do you guys manage with exercise? I train fairly hard 3-4 times a week, a mix of weights and conditioning. So far, I've managed to avoid training on fasting days, as I'm worried I'd crumble - but I tend to be really hungry the day after, which often is a FD.
Any advice is much appreciated.

morning quacking yes DH is really supportive with 5:2 as he's seen how its working for me, but he does struggle sometimes with understanding the more complicated emotional side of eating, things are quite black and white for him - to lose weight you eat less, which of course is correct, but he doesn't see the issues I deal with in between all of this, the hormonal urges around totm, my fucked up relationship with food spanning decades now but he does try his best (he's had bloody 22 years of it!!!) well done on the exercise, 3 miles seems LOADS to me

don't worry mickey if you read upthread a little you'll see that I've been struggling, but when I got on the scales I'd STS, so you might be surprised in that you haven't done as much damage as you thought? I'm fasting with you today so keep posting here for support

welcome cloud i think we have all suffered with being hangry on 5:2 but it does get easier. Have a cup of hot bovril or a teaspoon of marmite to take the edge of when you need it, its only around 10cals and it works. I can't comment on the exercise as i'm a lazy trout but bcf and others train really hard so will be able to give you some good advice, there is also an exercise thread on the go? Good luck with it!!

Aw thanks guys for your kind words. I also have a complicated relationship with food. Not a diagnosed disorder but a disorder none the less. TOTM threw me completely into a frenzy. Anyway what's done is fine. I'm fasting today and Thursday. Not weighing until Monday morning so hopefully won't get to see the worst of it on the scales. It's funny as I had a check up with nurse at GP recently... She wasn't even going to weigh me as she thought I looked fine. She was surprised I was in the overweight category. I didn't discuss my issues around food as I wasn't there for that and also didn't think I'd be taken seriously. I dress well for my shape I think which is a plus I guess but it also means talking about it to anyone doesn't seem to work as they just think I'm fine. Arrghh. Anyway thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Wishing you all a great day whether fasting or not

A visual representation of my struggle since mid August.... I'm going nowhere! I need to see that line carry on downwards.

Welcome, cloud 

Almost all people who are used to exercise can train on FDs, with one exception:
long steady state medium cardio - e.g. runs of more than 60 mins max.
Avoid these both on the FD and the following NFD

Best types of training are either HIIT - e.g. sprint intervals if you are a runner, or pump, spin, martial arts etc -
or lifting / resistance training.

This is because prolonged medium level cardio tries to access your glycogen stores more for fuel and these will be emptying on FD and still low the next day.
In contrast, HIIT or lifting can better access stored bodyfat for fuel. So that's wiń-win

I train on FDs & NFDs, 5-6 days per week; 2 of the days are only 30 mins of killer abs; the other days are 60 mins HIIT or lifting.
I walk and cycle most days too, as that is just part of my normal life (visually disabled, so can't drive)

My training is either mornings, in which case I do it fasted and fast until lunch,
or evenings, when I may fast until supper, or I may have lunch and then a protein mini-meal after training.

See what system suits you - it might take a couple more weeks for your body to adapt to fasted training.
Tip:
Glug down a black UNsugared double espresso about 10 minutes before fasted training - it helps mobilise bodygüfat for burning as fuel

Hey mickey, nice to see you. No shame here! We don't do shame - feeling guilty about eating usually means that you end up eating more t make yourself feel better, so it's doubly pointless. Tomorrow is another day and all that! If you get on the scales today, that means you don't have to get on the scales tomorrow...

cloud Welcome. I find lots of nice tea on FDs helps keep the rage down. Also I promised when I started 5:2 that it would not affect the lives of my husband and kids in the slightest and so far, it hasn't. I think of that if I find the rage creeping up. Re exercise - yes, I run a lot. I manage it by doing longer runs on weekends (I fast Mon and Thurs) so I've had a couple of non-fast days, doing shorter ones first thing in the morning on fast days, and making sure that I'm eating plenty of protein on both FDs and NFDs - my go-to FD meal is always a big slab of fish!

Morning all!

Hi @cloud welcome aboard!

@Mickeymacca I weigh myself once a month, I found myself weighing each week, then half way through, then every second day, then daily, then a few times. I fluctuated (we all do i hope!) and found it so demoralising to see I'd gone up that I'd use that as an excuse to binge then I'd stop eating to "counteract" the bad eating. I have a terrible relationship with food, so I'm focusing on how am feeling and not so much the scales. I like waking up in the morning without feeling bloated, I like eating a meal and feeling energised instead of tired. Food is fuel not comfort! I struggle with that a bit but I'm following the advice everyone has put up and @BCF always has good tips! I have bad days, but I'm trying not to use them as a stick to beat myself with. You're doing great!

Well done @snail great day!

@43 that's an amazing loss since August! I know it's gutting when you STS, but you haven't gained

Hi @quacking!

Impromptu fasting day yesterday and today. DS1 has a bad flu, I'm not getting a chance to do anything, never mind eat! So kitchen closed last night at 594, today looks to be about the same. Large fajita chicken and veg stir fry waiting for dinner

I am being very bad this week and not fasting - PIL are here until Thurs, and then on Fri I'm away staying with family until Sun. I am exhausted and grumpy and probably mildly hungover. Next week I shall be back on it with a plan for tracking on NFD and going back to the gym - BodyPump on Mon and Wed. I usually fast on Tues and Thurs, but these are coincidentally days when I used to go and do intense HIIT for 45 minutes at lunchtime. I might try it once and see how I get on!

Duck I recommend you add short bursts of HIIT to improve aerobic fitness / breathing / heart rate

Those 4 mins Fat Blasts would be good on a few days, or any other intense Tabata
Or Shred at 20 mins, to work on strength at the same time.

Mickey We can say anything here that we wouldn't want to say in rl, or that might not interest anyone in rl.

From what the nurse says, sounds like you haven't too much to lose before ehalthy BMI and then you can work towards the goal you choose.

It can also help to monitor waist loss, measured at the narrowest point, usually 2" above the navel (at the navel for men)
Waist makes quite a bit of difference to your waist and health factors, so progress there is encouraging even at times when the scales aren't moving much*

43* Look how far you've come !
To get over this difficult plateau, I recommend you invest 2-3 weeks in going really 5:2 Bootcamp

So, just for that short time, do mfp so you can highlight problem areas and retrain NFD habits
AND if you can
cut out booze & junk, i.e. deep-fried food, crisps, sugary treats - don't worry about sugar in savoury sauces etc, because life's too short !

Well done on your FD, boys
I hope your DS recovers soon 
Take care of yourself too

Cheddar A week off is fine.
Try to keep to the healthy habits, especially water, NHS alcohol limits and no snacks.

As I posted, HIIT sessions go well with fasting and hhelp boost fat-burning
So next week, why not go for it on Tue & Thur

Snail I'm another fan of fish on FDs. It is super healthy, also pretty filling, with a load of veg
Grilled salmon fillet & salad with vinaigrette for me
Prawn & veg stirfry is another good choice

Usually gives me enough cals for a small veg soup after training, or plain Greek yoghurt with a few berries

One of the advantages of 5:2 is having at least 2 pretty healthy days weekly: on FDs, we have much lower cals, no booze, no junk especially no sugary crap
Those good habits can feed into improving NFDs too and sustainable lifetime habits

Well done boys I think your weight management is really sensible. I weigh myself once a week, first thing in the morning after second FD, and then I put the scales in the drawer where I can't see them.

Oh, and talking of weight, I forgot that I've had another SV - down another 1lb to 9st 12. And period has appeared, my to my surprise. My last one was in July: this is the longest time I've ever gone without one, so looks like I'm properly into perimenopause now. More reason than ever to keep an eye on the waistline...

cloud I run for 45-60 min 3-4 times a week and I find that during a FD is easier than after a FD as the day after a FD I'm "running on empty" (though, even then, as I have one big meal rather than lots of little ones it isn't so bad.) Even on days after a fast, because I run, I can just run a little slower if I need to. Would be worth trying a session on the morning of a FD when you still have plenty of fuel from night before and seeing how you get on.

Ha ha I wish that was since August boys but that graph starts from end of Feb! ! Well done on the fd.

bcf I am taking your advice and doing exactly that well apart from cutting out booze as I have some nights out planned

cheddar could you do 16:8 while you've got the week off?

Excellent SV snail

Thanks, BCF - I tend to think of the HIIT class as really hard, so it is good to break the idea that I need special fuel for it. I don't! It's still just 45 minutes.

43, I didn't think of 16:8, that could work!

Thanks for the welcome and good advice! I've been trying bovril for a drink, that's a great idea. And yes, fish features heavily in FD meals 
I train in the evenings due to work/DC/DH schedules, which is why I have so far not dared to go on a FD... might try it - the trainers at my gym will def be happy to me adapting the exercises, as I am doing this as part of a reboot program that my gym is running 

cheddar 16:8 only loses weight if you have a weekly calorie deficit
You need to skip either breakfast or supper and not eat back the extra during the 8 hours

e.g. someone with TDEE 2000 on 2x500 FDs - and no eating it back on NFDs - has a weekly deficit of 3000 cals,
which on 16:8 would equal a daily average deficit (including WEs) of about 430 cals

I recommend 16:8 to people training for half-marathons and upwards, because they can't really train flat out with FDs
and also they are probably burning quite a lot of calories

Howevr, for 5k or 10k runs, 5:2 is easily doable for most folk, once they adapt

So, 16:8 is great for short bursts of maintenance, but for actual weight loss, you do need to eat less faily on it.

Well done on your SV, snail
Are you at your original goal now ?

Sure sounds like peri.
Actual meno and post-meno are much worse buggers for weight, so always easiest to form new habits as early as poss.

Many post-meno find that 5:2 / IF is the only WOE that works, after their previous diets work no longer

for actual weight loss, ... eat less daily on it