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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MOES2018 · 21/11/2018 13:58

Hi everyone
Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement.

Yesterday I closed the kitchen at 570 cals - GO ME!!! I also ran 3km with a friend and that was the first run since the end of July. (I broke my toe in August and am still suffering but that's a whole other thread!). I also ran 3km this morning so I really do feel as if I'm getting 'back in the game'!. Once successful FD is a game changer. I need to remind myself of that if I fall off the wagon again.

I've said it before but this is such a fantastic group.

I'm due TOTM at the weekend so I would safely guess that my mood is temporarily suffering because of that. Some months I notice it and some I don't but definitely this week my hormones are biting my as*!

Have a great day everyone and I will be checking in with you all tomorrow on my 2nd FD.

MOES xx

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2018 15:21

Well done on your FD, MOE
and extra well done for the running

It's so good you've got back in the running groove after your poor toe got hammered
Exercise helps mood, too !

NotReally FDs are maximum nutrition for minimum calories
You cut out all the alcohol and junk on those days, most of the starchy carbs & fat,
so you are left with moderate protein and max veg & water

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/11/2018 15:47

well done on the FD and the running moes Smile

God today is a struggle, i am SO HUNGRY!!! but also determined now I've got this far into a FD I will not be swayed but I might end up closer to 600 than 500cal!

How's everyone else getting on?

purplefig · 21/11/2018 16:35

@Fortythreeandfatasfuck what are you planning to eat for dinner?

I decided to move my FD from Friday to today as I now have plans on Friday. I love the flexibility of 5:2!

I had a good FD on Monday, though did struggle to get to sleep. I didn't feel overly hungry but it took ages - does anyone else get this?

Today I'm following the same plan as Monday. No food all day (just black coffee, chai tea, green tea and water!) and then tonight I shall enjoy: vegan sausages, cauliflower mash (LOVE this!) and oven roasted broccoli with an onion gravy. I'll also have a small smoothie made of frozen mango, raspberry, spinach and flaxseed with water, for the nutrients. I haven't been hungry all day, though starting to get hungrier now glugs green tea

purplefig · 21/11/2018 16:36

@MOES2018 congrats on your running and FD, that's very impressive! I agree with you that one successful FD changes everything. You realise that's it's quite do-able and very effective. I actually overate a bit yesterday and today when I decided to do a FD I found myself looking forward to it if you can believe it!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/11/2018 18:51

purple I'm freezing cold so just had soup with 120g chicken stirred through, finished fd on 558 so not too bad really. Your tea sounds delicious Smile yum....

purplefig · 21/11/2018 18:58

@Fortythreeandfatasfuck I've been FREEZING all day too, but I don't think it's because it's a FD I'm always cold!! Had the heating on and a hot water bottle all day while I worked. Hope that soup fills you up enough. Mine was good...though looking forward to porridge in the morning Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 21/11/2018 20:51

Well done, purple, 43 on powering through the FD on a cold day.

To keep warm on FDs, I drink lots of unsweetened green tea and herbal tea - ginger tea is especially warming
As they are basically zero cal, no limit so long as you don't add milk or sugar

purple Many people find it takes an effort to sleep on FDs, for the first few months
Their mind & body stay active,
one theory is that when our distant ancestors didn't have enough food, they needed to stay alert to hunt
and this characteristic of fasting stays until your body has got used to fasting without needing to hunt !

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 22/11/2018 07:54

Fleabag - I think sewing will be great for me I need a new hobby I had to give up cake making as it was a huge contributor to my weight gain going back quite a few years.

43 - I hope your FD went well. Oh Peanut butter on toast is so good. I purposely can’t buy the stuff as it will be gone in a couple of days.

NotReally - Well done on your B2B. I eat the same on FDs I find something that works for me that’s filling and I stick with it for a few months.

Moes - Well done on your FD, and also big well done for your running that’s huge.

Purple - At the beginning 5:2 really messed with my sleep I found it just becomes the new normal after a while. Hope your FD went well.

BCF - That’s really interesting about not being able to sleep.

FD done yesterday, I did nearly give in after my tea as I thought about all the yummy things we have in but I didn’t cave as I’d got too far in by that point.

Good luck to anyone fasting today.

harriethoyle · 22/11/2018 08:30

Morning troops! Anyone fasting with me today?

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 22/11/2018 08:38

Me! Night out cancelled so I am fasting today after all. Good luck, harriet!

Purple, fasting is messing with my sleep too! Hope I get used to it soon.

Well done all yesterday fasters! Particularly people doing b2bs - I’m too scared to try one of those!

Came in 250 over calories yesterday at 1950 - total craving for chocolate buttons. Sad

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/11/2018 08:39

well done quacking on nailing your FD, I'm like you I think "no way I can't cave now as it's nearly over" Smile

purple I am often described as nesh by my DH but its even worse on FDs, yesterday I ended up having a bath to warm me up!! thanks bcf I am going to get some ginger tea

NFD today and out for lunch at a chinese restaurant (eek!) so need to be mindful and make good choices, any tips???

Good luck harriet and all the other thursday fasters Smile

visitorthedog · 22/11/2018 09:02

Morning Everyone Smile, I totally get the cold thing too, I’ve been having a mug of Marigold stock (1tsp in hot water and very low calorie) to warm me up and keep me going on FDs.

Love the idea of us Fasters roaming around hunting at night, for chocolate buttons in the wild Grin

I had a couple of bit so great days Sun and Mon but have just completed a B2B for Turs and Weds so hoping back on track. My littlest is off school with a sickness bug so hoping no inadvertent fasts get added for any of the rest of us!

Good luck to today’s fasters!

visitorthedog · 22/11/2018 09:03

Typos, sorry!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 22/11/2018 09:38

Grin at chocolate buttons in the wild!

MOES2018 · 22/11/2018 09:49

Morning all!

Completed a successful NFD yesterday. Was starving last night though! I think I was just as hungry as if it were a FD. Anyway, it's in the bag! Today is my 2nd FD of the week. Very hungry this morning so had breakfast of 240 cals. I'll eat again around 4pm and that will be me done for the day. I think I need to space out my FD's some more - I couldn't this week but at least two days in between will be a must for this week.

I had an ASOS delivery yesterday - thankfully (for my wallet) I'm only keeping a pair of jeans and a pair of sandals but it was nice trying on the clothes and noticing a weight difference.

Does anyone follow any 5:2ers on Instagram. I'm new to Insta - I follow a few (normal!!) over 40's style bloggers and thought that following some 5:2ers would be nice.

Ok ramblings over for the day......have a great day all whether it's FD or NFD.

MOES

Boysmomma · 22/11/2018 09:53

Kitchen closed at 442 yesterday, STARVING this morning, filled up on porridge and fresh fruit, yum!

Thanks @Big need to get a new bike I think, took mine out last unoght it is beyond saving, maybe santa will be generous this year!! I also never knew that about sleep and fasting!

It's ok @43 I'm having some tonight after dinner Grin well done on your FD! Stir fry and ask for veg side instead of chips, egg rice. Good luck!

@Not I will remember that trick!

@MOE wow well done! Can't say I'd have had the strength for a run, to the fridge maybe.

@purple I've never actually tried cauliflower mash, or rice for that matter. Too many bad memories of my nan boiling heads of cabbage with broccoli and cauliflower Envy not envy! No problem with sleep, unless you count my mini terror waking at 4am, I'm sure he's torturing me!

Good luck @harriet and @visitor! Grin hunting chocolate!!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 10:19

Well done on your clothes NSV, MOE
That's lost bodyfat

and well done on your FD yesterday, duck, boys

Good luck, Harriet, Cheddar and all the other Thursday fasters

Cheddar - & anyone else who struggles on NFDs:
do you stick to No Snacking and NHS alcohol limits ?
Those rules really help

If you do, it may be the GI of your NFDs is too high - several ways to lower this:

  • Try to 2:5 "treats" so they are more occasional, i.e. one moderate portion on 2 NFDs, that's the total weekly treat budget

  • Include beans, peas, lentils most days - they are proven to help stabilise blood sugar

  • Have more veg sides and keep starchy carb portions to recommended sizes per meal:
    80-100g cooked weight for rice / pasta / potato or 1-2 slices of bread

  • Change to less processsed versions of starchy carbs:
    brown / red rice (not white), oats (not the flavoured instant kind), 100% wholegrain / wholemeal / rye bread, quinoa

  • Swap mash or deep-fried potato to baked or boiled

  • Make "resistant" starch, i.e. cool potato / pasta / rice, refrigerate, then eat later warmed up or cold
    This reduces the insulin impact of those starches.

Also:

  • Be sensible about the amount of butter & cheese on bread - and again no more than 2 slices bread or 1 big roll per meal. Add some veg, e.g. tomato, lettuce, cucumber to bulk out the filling
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 10:22

I hope you've dropped specific hints about a bike to Santa, boys
Or afterwards, treat yourself - my presents to myself are usually my favourite 😏

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 22/11/2018 11:03

That included no alcohol - it was a bit of a weird day yesterday foodwise because I didn't have time for breakfast and I was starving. I had a sandwich and bag of crisps for lunch at 12, then 2 pieces of toast and butter and some Christmas tree shaped crisps when I got in from work at 6, went out to my trampoline class and then had dinner at 8.30, which was crispy duck in pancakes. When I finished that lot I was just slightly over TDEE but I had this ridiculous craving for something sweet so I had some chocolate buttons. Not sure if that counts as a snack, because it was straight after dinner, so more of a pudding. I was only going to have one for the taste but self-control deserted me. Clearly that was a very bad crispy day! I wouldn't usually scoff like that but I spent the whole day starving and longing for chocolate, which isn't like me.

harriethoyle · 22/11/2018 14:21

@TooExtra fasting fist bump!

Just had a fishcake for a late lunch - at 270 cals a bit higher than would have usually but it's just so fecking cold!! It was lovely though, might have the second one for my tea!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 22/11/2018 14:29

Go harriet! I've had parsnip soup and I am fecking starving. The last few FDs have been relatively easy but this one really isn't. It must be the cold!

matro87 · 22/11/2018 14:33

Ohhh that's seems interesting

Stircrazyschoolmum · 22/11/2018 14:41

Hey all

Quick NFD check in.. I just had one and a half egg mayo and tomato Sandwiches with a packet of crisps for lunch as I was freezing and had been too absorbed in a document to stop earlier.

Assuming 120 calories for each slice plus 200 for 2 eggs and 100 for crisps, I’ve just realised I’ve scarfed 660 calories and that’s without the tom or mayonnaise! It’s a NFD so I’m not that bothered but it’s made me realise how easy it is the rack up the calories.. especially with carbs.

Sandwiches are not my friend, I reckon fishcake and chocolate buttons would’ve been far nicer and ironically less calorific! Grin

Good luck today fasters! xx

Stircrazyschoolmum · 22/11/2018 14:43

Ps: cheddar I am a complete parsnip hater (swede too) so I think I’d pass on the soup! Grin