5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Hi all

Today was supposed to be a FD after a totally decadent weekend involving Sunday roast with friends, pudding, crisps, and dry November getting distinctly soggy, however, I’m so hungry I could eat the dog so I’ve decided to keep within TDEE today and restart tomorrow. I’m not too upset about it as the scales tipped into pre-wedding weight for the first time on Friday. I very much doubt it’s still there today but I’m not going to find out!

I agree something about not blowing the NFD’s would be a great thread title and I’m thanking my lucky stars I don’t like mince pies!

Keep going fasters!

Checking in for b2b d1. Also had a moderately indulgent weekend. But realised how much my portion size has changed. Went to friends for Sunday roast and physically couldn’t fit my plateful in (plated up by friends) so had to leave some potatoes

There seems to be an indulgent theme today.. perhaps it’s the cold weather?!

Borris that’s amazing! Sadly I never seem to have that problem.. I’m a sucker for roast spuds!

Wow, Stir well done on a pre-wedding-weight milestone SV
Now you know you can soon reach that again, with focus

MOE Don't worry too much:
Some of that regain will be undigested food and retained water due to the excess amount of carbs especially
So, a couple of good dumps and an FD should get rid of some of that.

You've had a useful lesson:
5:2 brings you a good SV - but bingeing on NFDs piles it right back on again

Now you know, you can remind yourself in future that fasting, or a good SV, is not permission to binge
The basic idea of 5:2 is 2 x VLCD days and 5 x maintenance days

imo 1st step is training yourself to eat sensibly on NFDs, especially at the weekends - and permanently
Most people don't need to mfp, but just need to retrain their "normal" eating, by changing some bad habits, usually from their teens & 20s, that they can no longer get away with

I recommend - everyone - keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, NEVER snack / graze between meals,
sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal,
lots of water & veg,
cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Well done on the restraint, Borris
Do you think your appetite is adjusting to your new insights about what your body actually burns ?
Or did you just have exceptionally generous / greedy friends ! 😏

I recommend reserving 4:3 as a plateau-buster:

i.e. after you have done everything correctly, NFDs under control, good habits etc, but have a genuine plateau - 3 weeks+ sts - because your body has reached a set point.

It's also useful as an occasional add-on to a very busy social week, or with a special social occasion

Adding FDs often doesn't help progress if you can't get NFDs under control

• experience on these threads and others indicates in such cases that people automatically eat back the extra FD too So 4:3 is often no faster than 5:2

Also, 3 FDs weekly makes a tough diet, as the ratio of FDs to normal days, 5:2 vs 4:3, is really noticeable over the weeks.

How's everyone getting on? I have a meeting at 7pm, so rather than drive I'm going to walk to it (20 mins I reckon) to a) get my steps in and b) delay dinner til I get back at 8pm cos I won't have to time to have it now before I go! Then I won't spend the rest of the evening feeling hungry...

@Stircrazy I swear I'm part bear in the winter - quite apart from the hairy legs, I feel driven to put on a nice extra layer of fat to get me through all the extra sleeping I want to do!! And winter food is SO GOOD. Pies, dumplings, red wine, roast dinners... arghhhhhh!

Thank you BigChoc for your reply. Not snacking is definitely something I could try on NFDs. I also need to understand that one meal or even day doesn't have to throw a whole weeks effort out the window. I heard someone say this on the radio last week - 'Don't let good be the enemy of perfect. I've been thinking about it a lot today.....
Hope everyone had a good day.

Finishing on 539 but my ready meal was not very nice at all and now I am FURIOUS! I am nursing a herbal tea and muttering darkly to myself...!

Hello, may I join you?

I had good success with 5:2 many years ago but have been shamefully bad with food recently and need to sort myself out.

Jumped back in to 5:2 today finishing on about 590cals.Didn’t weigh this morning as scales are broken! But also don’t really want to face up to how bad it might be.

Question - is it normal to be freezing on a FD? The weather is colder than it has been but I just can’t warm up!

MOE No snacking is probably the most important habit to learn, on a fasting diet

Why we shouldn't snack (not just for 5:2)

Snacks are fine for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC,
but not anyone likely to be on these threads

Even "healthy" snacks like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, entirely to increase profits

This has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution - almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant, see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

Well done, harriet
You can have some delicious food tomorrow

Welcome, fleabag 🙂
and well done on your 1st FD for a while.

Why you may feel colder on FDs

Fat is used by the body for heat.
When fasting, your body doesn't have as much fuel readily available and starts to burn your body's fat store for energy.

It may not do so quickly enough to provide as much heat as normal.

You may notice cold hands & feet in particular:
more blood is travelling to your body fat, to help move it to your muscles where it can be burned as a fuel.

This can cause the blood vessels in toes and fingers to dilate, to compensate.

A little exercise - whether walk / housework / gym - will improve circulation on FDs

Also, after you lose say a stone, you may feel cold on NFDs too :

you will have lost a fair bit of fat under the skin, which acts as insulation.
Your body may need time to adjust to burning more fat for energy, to compensate.

@fleabag I always feel cold on a FD - currently in front of the fire! I also sometimes struggle to get to sleep - a strong anti histamine like piriton helps me drop off if I need it. Although I am KNACKERED tonight so don't think it will be a problem today

Thank you both - i think I’m going to have an early night and tuck myself up in an extra blanket!

Successful day here too 😇 Well
Done other fasters. Anyone on tomorrow as I’m b2b ing?

Hi all 👋

FD closed at 530, happy with that.
Interesting about being cold as I've really felt chilly today (apart from half hr on the treadmill which I found really hard going 😬) but put it down to it just being colder..am doing my 2nd FD on thurs so will see if I'm warmer tomorrow!

Borris I'm with you today

Fist bumps bug. We can do this

Congratulations on your SV visitor, 5lbs is amazing.

Lara - Yes I used to frequently binge/ get the urges very regularly too. Still get the urges. I think it was to do with the diet depriving cycle. For me it’s sorted itself out. When I get the urges I now go find something to do those tedious jobs we hate like cleaning the over/ sort out a cupboard also I tell myself “tomorrow” but that tomorrow rarely comes tbh. We can’t be perfect all the time so try taking small steps a day at a time.

Moes - I hope your FD went well. Well done for planning your week ahead. Totally agree a meal / day doesn’t equal a bad week.

Purple- Congratulations on your loss this week.

Boys I hope your fast went well yesterday and goes swimmingly for today.

StirCrazy- I also doubt very much your gain will still be there. It does seem to naturally disappear even on a NFD. Hope you have a great week.

Borris - hope your B2B is going well. That is one thing on this WOL your stomach really seems to shrink. I still suffer from eyes bigger than my belly but it’s something I’m still working on.

Harriet - That’s so disappointing your tea wasn’t good.

Fleabag - Welcome and congratulations on your FD. Yes freezing cold is completely normal on a FD. Make sure you layer up.

MrJolly - Well done for your FD.

Sorry for not being about this week. Busy busy and slightly stressed out again. Doing alright tho weight wise could do with loosing a 1lb or 2 but I’ve been doing lots of self care taking time out each day for me to put some
Moisturizer on do my nails etc is working well.

Really starting to feel the cold now, last year it was after Xmas so hat and gloves are now permanently worn.

Good luck to everyone fasting today.

Ugh. Faced the scales this morning and it’s as bad as I thought.

Onwards and downwards from here I hope!

Thank you everyone for the welcome and i’m feeling a lot warmer today. FD 2 tomorrow.

quacking sending you a (((HUG))) for feeling stressed but well done on the self care. I’m freezing today too!

borris and bug I’m with you today. Yesterday was a sensible TDEE and a better plan than pushing through with the FD then binging on snacks late in the day. I haven’t felt that hungry in ages.

harriet YES! Fellow bear here.. I love my pies, roasts and red wine. I’m not overly a sweet tooth person although sticky toffee pudding is hard to resist! I remember a month or two ago I had a really rubbish ready meal and it made me soooo grumpy! These days I stick mainly to stir fry’s with squid or prawns or some variety of an omelette. I think M&S ready meals seem to get the best reviews from the board in general if that helps?

Welcome to flea and hello to jolly is there snow on the mountains yet?

Right! Must get busy as feeling hungry again.. spring greens and prawns with chilli and soy for lunch I think!

Morning all, FD went by the wayside yesterday, I got to lunch and was starving, I decided to get a salad and then went back and got spiced chickpeas and ate enough for 2. I had a decent mini though with 809 at close! A few months back I'd have picked up a bag of crisps or a bar, fizzy drink, something to keep me going, in my mind small size translated to fewer calories, (I didn't actually believe that, I just wanted to ). Yesterday i was cross with myself for failing my FD, I said it to a friend on the way home and she reminded me of my old habits. Took a while but it's sinking in.

I am starting a fresh today! Day 1 (take 2) of b2b.

@Stir wow! That's amazing, well done!

@Borris nothing would have stopped me finishing off that dinner!

@harriet sorry about your ready meal, you'd a great plan though!

Hi @Flea! welcome aboard! Not cold yet, too much cushion, next year I aim to be freezing

Hi @quacking! Self care is the best care (or something similar) my nan used to say.

I'm moving on today now, I've skipped breakfast, coffee is my best friend and I'm working towards my LBD for the xmas party. Good luck Tuesday fasters!

Boys - that is a good recovery, well done

Good luck to all FDers/B2Bers today

Are there any decent fresh or frozen ready meals out there that come in at around 300 cals?
My usual go to eve meal on a FD is salmon (200 cals) plus greenveg/beetroot/pickled cabbage or alternatively mushroom omelette but it's getting a bit samey...

Stir - haven't been up for about a month or so but I have seen some frosty pics of pen y fan...I will definitely try and get up there if it snows!

Good morning everyone
Well yesterdays FD went by the wayside. I'm seem to be in self-sabotage mode right now. I think my mental health is a little 'off' at the moment so I'm bingeing which only makes my mental health worse - it's a bit of a vicious circle.
So today I'm attempting a FD. All going well so far. I know if this is a successful FD I will be 'back in the zone' somewhat.
I've done so well on 5:2 since June - well I've had good weeks and ok weeks but it has been lovely buying new clothes and receiving compliments from people about my weight loss. I don't want to throw the can in now!
Hopefully tomorrow I will be back to report a successful FD.
Good luck everyone today.
MOES

Come on moes we've got you MH is not good...Come & have a little chat here if it helps.
Quite a few b2b'rs today..me included, just having a wobble to give in but having a 5 minutes with a coffee. I had a porridge with water at 12. Got 400c left for dinner tonight.
All keep going we've got this dispite the cold x