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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
MrJollyLivesNextDoor · 07/11/2018 14:15

Re Xmas
I'm just not going to buy all the usual crap...really bad things like sausage rolls etc as I just end up eating them for the sake of it tbh

Made it this far through FD with only a couple of cups of tea on board (plus water)
I'm saving my cals for dinner...salmon broccoli carrots and beetroot/pickled cabbage.

Haven't don't C25K since Friday as been away so will revisit my previous session on that tonight, shouldn't be too difficult on empty (might have a ryvita half hr beforehand)

Good luck fellow fasters!

Stircrazyschoolmum · 07/11/2018 14:22

Welcome not and also visitor and drogan

BCF and quacking thank you for the guidance on moving to maintenance, a gradual phased approach sounds very sensible - I’m still in the middle of my healthy BMI range so there is no rush as such and I really don’t want to put it all back on. Shock

Lovely pics jolly. I’m a Londoner and I don’t think I have any as good as that. Grin Your Christmas plan sounds sensible, we are fortunate enough to go away to a sports camp each year which keeps me on the straight and narrow!

Well done on your sober weekend cheddar by the end of the week we’ll be a third through!

The lamb Tagine was a store bought one from COOK. I don’t know how many stores they have but they can sometimes be found in Waitrose. It was far nicer than the disasterous ready meal I had a few weeks ago!

Good luck to all today’s fasters. :-)

MuddyElephant · 07/11/2018 20:44

Welocme not, visitor and drogan. I'm new too but everyone is so helpful.

Well done cheddar, the 10s are a great place...I was there earlier in the year but fimly in the 11s now and can't wait to get back there!

Jolly what a fab view! Your dinner sounds yum :) Good plan about Christmas too. At my parents this year and there are always lots of treats - like Boris I think I'll give myself a couple of days off but do some fast days as well....expecting a gain that week but trying to do damage limitation! Good idea duck, I ususually get lots of chocs for pressies as I love it, but might put some early warnings out not to buy it for me this year!

Forty I am planning on using nail varnish as a "reward" too. Don't buy super expensive stuff but going to get a new colour each month if I stick to FDs and get consisent losses.

Thanks for the info on the b2b FDs BigChoc. Have done a 500 day today so going to try 800 tomorrow and see how I go. Think I am going to have to go and do my teeth though as meal planning and watching masterchef isn't helping my FD haha.

Hope everyone has had a fab day. Half way through the week!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/11/2018 21:15

Welcome back, notreally
It's positive if you've sts during a long absence, better than regain 🙂

Have you been fasting, or trying a standard daily diet ?
Is your waist (measured at the narrowest popint, about 2" above the navel) less than half your height ?
Is your extra weight more around your middle / thighs / spread around ?

I suggest, if you want to mfp, that you aim for around sedentary TDEE on the weekday NFDs
and your full TDEE at the weekend

Tips for "hard losers":

  1. Add HIIT Fat Blasts,
    just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park or gym, 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OPP*

  2. Keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, NEVER snack / graze between meals, sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/11/2018 21:20

MrJolly I hope you enjoyed your run

I go for luxurious but reasonably healthy food
e.g. Christmas is the time for lobster, fillet steak, out of season berries & melons

Muddy Aha, hat's good, you've already learned the "clean your teeth trick" for FDs
Maybe record Masterchef, GBBO etc in future, though - another FD tip ! 😏

Have an early night and good luck for tomorrow

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 08/11/2018 06:58

Thank you for the welcome.

bigchoc I've been messing with weightwatchers & 16:8 in my absence. WW provided structure & educated me to an extent but i think it's to calorie restrictive for me. Also I gave up biscuits for lent & carried on when it ended..biscuit free since February 12th...

My waist is 34 my height is 67..I'm a hour glass shape in general but slowly turning into a barrel Shock
First FD today black coffee so far this morning, off to the gym next to busy my day.
All have a good one x

BigChocFrenzy · 08/11/2018 09:34

That must be very frustrating, Notreally
and well done for giving up biscuits, if they were your crack.

If 1000 cals is typical, you should be losing like mad

  • is that your total intake, or are you counting calories "burned" ?

mfp and gadgets often badly over-estimate calories burned
Also TDEE calculators vary a lot

This is the 5:2 system:

  • Use mfp (if you use it) only for total calories, sugar etc in, NOT for calories burned

  • On NFDs, exercise calories can be accounted for via daily TDEE, NOT by "eating back" the extra from mfp or a gadget

  • On FDs, do NOT eat back exercise calories, even if you are theoretically "minus" for the day

  • Use Mosely's TDEE calculator, more reliable than some others : Calc TDEEE*
    If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think

  • Calculate also your sedentary TDEE

  • NEVER snack/ graze between meals and ALWAYS keep to NHS alcohol limits

Specific recommendations for you:

  • For 2 weeks, stick to the above - especially NHS alcohol limits & no snacks - and also aim for sedentary TDEE on weekday NFDs, full TDEE at weekend ones

  • To specifically target your middle, as I recommended upthread, do the HIIT Fat Blasts
    and cut right back on sweet / carby junk, e.g. cake, biscuits, crisps, pastries, deep-fried food

  • try to 2:5 it, i.e. one sensible portion on 2 NFDs per week, none on other days
Have these treats only as part of a meal, say as pud
OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 08/11/2018 13:23

bigchoc it has been frustrating not dropping any weight on those numbers.. the Mr said there's nothing else that I can cut back on.
I'm going to follow your instructions and see if this last 10lb will go via 5:2 .

harriethoyle · 08/11/2018 15:16

Hi everyone,

On my second FD of the week but accidentally missed dinner last night (hugely delayed train, working away from home) so I am fricking STARVING! There is a chap across the train aisle from me eating beef hula hoops and I just want to mug him for them Grin

On 367 after a sandwich, going to have a fishcake for tea I think which should bring me in at c.600 for the day, which will do just fine.

Hope everyone else is pushing on through.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/11/2018 15:58

600 would be a good FD under the circs, Harrie
Fishcake, some veg & lots of water should fill the void

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 08/11/2018 21:17

Kitchen closed on 520 - chicken Caesar salad with home made croutons, and 4 cups of tea with milk.

elspethmcgillicuddy · 08/11/2018 21:25

evening all!

FD closing on 554.

I had a good NFD yesterday (although I did eat slightly more chocolate in the evening than I had planned). I ran 3.5 miles at 5.30am and then played rugby in the evening. There is a new women's only touch rugby team that started in my town a few weeks ago and I am enjoying it. I certainly worked hard last night!
I'm going away with my sister this weekend. The plan is to not snack in the evening!

duck- I took up running about 4 years ago and it turned out I love it. I am not especially fast but I am committed. I have now done 11 half marathons and 3 full marathons. I have a few pounds to get to my target. I've been thinking about Xmas too. I'm wondering about doing ADF for most of December.

pop- good luck with the running and well done on the B2B
borris- well done for keeping an eye on it. It is when I have a week off the scales the wheels all come off!

Harriet- I hope your FD ended well!

visitorthedog · 08/11/2018 22:29

Hi, I’m on my second NFD and actually finding them harder than my FDs, stupidly, it’s like I’ve forgotten what to eat!

Hope everybody else has had good days Smile

MuddyElephant · 09/11/2018 07:13

visitor I never have thst problem Blush taking my desire for stuffing anything I can in my face especially choc is my main issue on NFDs. I know there are going to be snacks in the office today as someone I manage is leaving. Planning on one small thing at lunch and that's it! Will report back later...

Well done cheddar and Harriet...Hope the man's hula hoops remained unscathed!

BCF I tried b2b this week 500 then 800 after your helpful info and seemed manageable. Think I will build it in to my plan for the week.

Have a good day everyone! Friday at last Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/11/2018 08:33

morning everyone... i'm sneaking back in after a horrific week where each attempt at an FD has failed by mid morning :( I have horrible tender boobs and feel all PMT-y even though it's not totm yet (well, it shouldn't be but i'm all over the place at the moment)

well done on all the SVs and everyone else nailing their FDs cheddar jolly muddy elspeth and everyone else Smile

Welcome to notreally and good luck with it all and harrie I hope you managed to sit on your hands and not attack the poor man for his crisps Grin

Attempting an FD today, wish me luck! I'm feeling slightly mentally stronger this morning so fingers crossed I can get through 1 this week! good luck any other friday fasters Smile

harriethoyle · 09/11/2018 08:51

I can confirm that no elderly hula hoop eaters were harmed during the course of my train journey Grin

Frustratingly I'm UP on the scales this morning! Angry but I feel really slinky and am in my second smallest pair of jeans so I guess I'll just have to take a NSV grumbles to self all morning

harriethoyle · 09/11/2018 08:51

Good luck @fortythree - you got this!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/11/2018 10:10

that's a fab NSV harrie no doubt the scales will move soon but if you are feeling slinky then try not to worry about the numbers too much, sounds like you've lost body fat? Pleased to hear no one was harmed Grin

quackingduck222 · 09/11/2018 10:28

Pop - Well done you’ve done amazing. Have you got a goal in mind or are you going to play it by ear and see what happens?

Borris - I hope your b2b went well. That will get you back on the right path good on you for not panicking.

NotReally - Welcome back, go with the TDEE reading. Don’t make the mistake I did and go with the BMR reading. Do
You use MFP to track? I’d honestly give 5:2 your all and see what happens, quite a few of us have managed to reset our targets lower and achieved a weight
That simply would not been possible on other diets.

MrJolly - Yes same here about Xmas crap, I think this year I will meal plan in advance as it’s amazing how much crap sneaks into your trolly. Well done on your FD

StirCrazy - you will be fine, when you get into the swing of it it becomes the new normal.

MuddyElephant - Hope your FD went well.

Harrie- Well done on your FD that sounds so very hard for you. The inch loss on this WOL is AMAZING. If you haven’t already take your measurements some weeks you may get a duff reading on the scales but loose a inch or two and at two inches per dress size it’s great way of looking at it.

Elspe - Bloody hell that is frigging amazing. You sound very committed. Well done on your FD.

43 - Good luck for your FD today.

My blip weight of +6lbs has been ironed out back and I’m now nicely in my target range by missing my usual dessert out Tuesday, Wednesday I had a large but lighter tea and had the dessert and a FD Thursday.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2018 13:03

Well done on your FD, Cheddar, Elspeth

Good luck today, 43
Just stick to exactly the menu you planned, no little extras to send you off track

Chant to yourself: "I can have it tomorrow"

Good to hear that 500/800 b2b system suits you, Muddy

Well done on your SV, Duck and being back in Happy Weight Range*
*
Rugby sounds fantastic, elspeth
With marathons and halfs too, you must be super-fit

Well done on your jeans NSV, Harrie
As Duck said, that sounds like you have lost bodyfat, so the scales should catch up soon
Just stay focused

Noone knows your weight; they only see your shape
e.g. see 2 pictures of the same woman (who took up weight-lifting and low carb)

5:2 / IF often improves "body composition", i.e. % muscle : % bodyfat and may even slightly increase muscle, or muscle density, without increasing exercise - this is why bodybuilders often do IF.
Since muscle weighs more than fat, people can significantly change shape without always comparable change on the scales

For women who aren't lifting heavy weights, there won't be much muscle density added, so continuing to burn bodyfat should move the scales along.

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 09/11/2018 15:24

Hi all...FD went well yesterday just under 590...OH put milk in my coffee last night... was ready for breakfast this morning avocado & poached egg flat bread was yummy.
quacking thanks for the advice.i will stick for the long haul now as it seems nothing else is moving the stubborn little fat cell..
I am using mfp using my tdee on Friday & Saturday...1700cal will be loads then 3 days at BMR.
It feels quite liberating today not actually panicking about food & weight loss x

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/11/2018 19:31

Thanks bcf wow those photos are interesting, why are we so focused on numbers instead of how our body looks.

Managed around 870cals today so not ideal but better than most days this week! I'm hoping this hormonal blip will pass soon as I feel so huge and bloated Sad defo not stepping on the scales this week!! My poor dh is probably hoping it passes soon as he's getting the brunt of it... for better for worse huh!

Well done everyone else fasting today, have a great weekend

BigChocFrenzy · 09/11/2018 21:57

Well done on your FD, Notreally

Like duck, I always recommend against using BMR - just stick to TDEE, if you want to mfp
Otherwise, it becomes dieting every day, which is not sustainable longterm

The idea of 5:2 is 2 diet days per week + 5 maintenance days when you can relax
If you've been struggling a long time, you need this space to chill a bit.

Well done on your miniFD, 43 That's a good step in resisting the hormonal blip

As you are finding FDs tough, I suggest next week you try the 3 minis system, which has worked for several folk struggling with FDs:

MiniFDs (800-1000) on Mon+Wed+Fri

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/11/2018 08:52

Anyone fasting today ?
I've a busy week, so I'm doing a b2b today and tomorrow - 800 cals, as I'm on maintenance

OP posts:
Borris · 11/11/2018 09:09

I’m tomorrow and tuesday bcf