Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
elspethmcgillicuddy · 05/11/2018 21:30

Fast day kitchen closing on 537. I'm trying to focus on more protein but it is difficult as I am veggie.

I'm now off to plan tomorrow's food.

Borris · 05/11/2018 21:58

I think eggs are your friend then Elspeth Smile

I’m b2b bcf so fd2 tom. Just works well for me this way

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 05/11/2018 22:01

Happy birthday, Drogon!

Kitchen closed today (NFD) on 1400 - and I’m not hungry! TDEE is 1700. I was definitely over 2000 both weekend days, though, so I need a low day to make up a bit.

HLBug · 05/11/2018 22:01

Finished up today on about 270 calories. Which is not what I'd intended but never mind!! I had a light lunch (270 calories worth!) then completely forgot I had a work thing tonight so ended up running late with no time for dinner. Nerves got the better of me so I wasn't hungry anyway. I'm sure by breakfast tomorrow I'll be happy to eat though!!

Borris · 05/11/2018 22:02

Muddy 2lb down AND an indulgent weekend is a win!!

Bug - did you do mini or full fd?

Stir - lamb tagine sounds nice. What’s the recipe?

Borris · 05/11/2018 22:03

Ooh cross post bug. You did half a fd 😹😹

MuddyElephant · 06/11/2018 07:24

Thanks @boris, bonus of it being the first week...Not expecting it to be the same in future weeks!

Ended up painting my nails last night so I couldn't eat anything!

@Stir would love the recipe too.

Happy FD everyone. Out for dinner but studied the menu and planning on staying under 1200.

visitorthedog · 06/11/2018 08:22

Morning everyone, I managed my first fast day yesterday and was in bed with teeth cleaned at 9pm - rock and roll Grin

So today I’m going to try to keep to low carb-ish (no refined sugar at least) and TDEE. 🤞🏻

Hope everyone has a good day.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2018 08:41

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, visitor

Well done too, Elspeth, bug

Elspeth As you are veggy, I recommend you boost beans, peas & lentils, which are also proven to help stabilise blood sugar

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/11/2018 10:58

welcome visitor and drogon
wow bug that must have been one hell of a busy day!!!

I do that all the time muddy its is surprisingly successful and I always have beautifully colourful nails Grin enjoy your dinner out

my FD went tits up yesterday Blush and I've a busy day at work today with a drinks reception and buffet to manoeuvre later so its an NFD today and either b2b weds and thurs or fd weds and fri - undecided at the moment!!

hope everyone has a good day Smile

visitorthedog · 06/11/2018 14:21

I’ve accidentally got through to now without eating, as I’ve been busy and not super hungry. Wondering if I should just power through and do my FDs back to back.

Can I ask a question please, what is the reasoning for the slightly increased calories for back to back fasts?

MrJollyLivesNextDoor · 06/11/2018 14:23

Hi everyone

Have had a rather indulgent couple of weekends so need to knuckle down now and crack on towards Xmas!

Am doing my 1st FD tomorrow since pre-illness and am actually looking forward to it

As an aside we stayed at the Tower Hotel in London last weekend, would definitely recommend it...this was the view from our window...

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "
5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "
BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2018 15:52

Visitor Dr Michelle Harvie researched b2b fasts as her version of 5:2 - developed in fact well before Mosely, who took somme ideas from her.
She used 2 x 650 low carb consecutive FDs, with Mediteranean eating on the 5 consecutive NFDs

She was sponsored by breast cancer charities to carry out human trials on groups of overweight women survivors at risk of cancer recurrence.
Her results showed 650 b2b system was more successful than standard daily calorie controlled diets, for both weight loss and measured cancer risk parameters

Mosely used research that 500 FDs were sufficient for non-consecutive FDs - mainly Varady's ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) which found that TDEE/4 gave the best results / compromise for fat loss & muscle retention.

TDEE / 4 gave on average the 500 (women) / 600 (men) and both Varady and Mosely said this works pretty well in practice for most men and women.

There has been no direct comparison of 500 non-consecutive wih 650 b2b, so we don't know if one of them is better than the other.
However, both are proven in human trials to work and to work better than standard daily diets.
Both Harvie and Varady drew on the same body of research - and Mosely used their research as well !

Why 650 b2b:
My hypothesis is that you start FD2 already in a fasted state, i.e. efficient fat-burning, from FD1,
hence don't need quite such a large total calorie deficit from the 2 days,
because there are more hours spent in a fasted state and the fasted state is probably deeper.

btw, What suits some people on b2b, is to set FD1 as 500 cals and then FD2 as 800 cals, to give the same 1300 total.
Again the logic being that FD2 starts already fasted

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2018 15:55

visitor re b2b: try it and see
Some people prefer b2b; most find it too tough

Good luck, MrJolly
Lovely pics

Don't worry, 43 Just move on
Wed + Fri would probably be best: Fri FD is a good start to the weekend and this system also avoids a b2b, if you haven't done this before

OP posts:
visitorthedog · 06/11/2018 16:40

Thank you Bigchoc, that’s really interesting and makes sense, I really appreciate the support and guidance on these threads, it’s partly how long I’ve seen them running which has inspired me Flowers

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 06/11/2018 19:16

That view is amazing, Jolly!

Closing kitchen on 507. Parsnip soup for lunch, trout and broccoli for dinner. Mmm!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2018 20:06

Well done, cheddar Menu sounds delic & healthy

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 06/11/2018 22:22

Hi all, just checking in as I've not posted in a while and (gasp) the thread fell off my "posts I'm on". Just chucking along, still keeping up my M/T B2B but had half term off so weight loss is happening but quite slowly (I mean, if I'm pessimistic it's not happening and I'm just STS but optimistic thinks despite a few ups the general trend is still down. Weigh in tomorrow so I'll see...

BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2018 22:49

pop If you are sts for 3+ weeks, then you are probably eating back the FD deficit on NFDs
Some folk eat it back at weekends & frequent social occasions; for others it's spread over most NFDs

Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

I also recommend you mfp for one week, as a reality check and to identify hidden calorie bombs, or mistaken portion sizes

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 07/11/2018 08:26

Pop, it’s maybe just half term slowing things down (and Halloween!) and the weight will start to come off again as you settle back into it.

SV: lost 1.6lbs! 11 stone 3 now. Hoping to see a 10 on the scale in the next couple of weeks! That would be amazing.

quackingduck222 · 07/11/2018 09:19

BCF - well that’s good about the rain. Are all you FDs vegan fasts now or do you mix it up a bit?

Harriet - well done on your FD.

Elspeth - Holy moly 13 miles that’s amazing. You sound incredibly fit, do you have much to get to your target?

Bug - I like your inspirational post, how are you getting on?

Borris - you are doing fab you will do fab.

MuddyElephant - Congratulations on your loss. 2lbs is fab.

Boys - If your having a large meal in the evening can you fast until then? I do this and for me I find it’s damage limitation.

Stir crazy- I’m honestly not too sure but I would imagine I went up to 800 gradually as I was honestly petrified of maintenance in my head I couldn’t believe 1 day at 800 would work. It does mostly. I do occasionally have blips and my weight can rocket over the last two weeks for example I hit a all time low of 7st 10 and yesterday morning I weighed in at 8st 5 my maintenance weight is 7st 12 but the majority of the time I’m around 8. My plan of action this week is to pull back each day so yesterday I had my evening meal only and no pudding of Greek yoghurt so that’s saved me 500 Cals. I find pulling back over the week really works for me a over indulgence day doesn’t equal a bad week it can be saved. I also find having a weight range good, as soon as I hit that top range I fast. I’m no longer worried, it works I just needed to learn to chill and not panic so much.

Welcome to the thread visitor.

Welcome also Dragon.

MrJolly wow your pictures are stunning.

Cheddar congratulations on your loss, ooh not long and you will be in the 10s. Fantastic

Well done for everyone fasting the last couple of days and well done to the hardcore b2bers.

Actually I’m thinking ahead to Xmas too, I’ve told people already I don’t want chocolates. It’s nice and I obviously would enjoy them but last year all the goodies got in the way of fasting. I could of done worse but I also could of done better with a 7lbs gain so definitely room for improvement this year. And I definitely intend to fast over the festive period.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 07/11/2018 09:50

Thanks all, I'm not too concerned as the B2B come fairly easily now, I've met my initial goal, and then my actual goal of a healthy BMI, so now I'm just going for my stretch goal. (I carry my weight around my middle so really should try to get to the lower end of the BMI scale.) And I'm happy (for now) if that is slow and steady.

Christmas is a bit of a worry for me as I'll be staying with DH's family abroad for a few weeks and they are total foodies and drink a lot of wine. (Plus, I find I lean on gin to keep me sane when staying in the same house as SIL and MIL.)

Plan of action for the moment is to try and get as much running in (easier than normal as childcare is abundant) and use that as an outlet rather than G&Ts and to limit sweet indulgences. I like savoury food more anyway, and know I will indulge in that, but I end up eating lots of sweets and cakes because they are around rather than I necessarily want it.

And January austerity is a tradition now, no?

Borris · 07/11/2018 10:14

Cheddar well done on the SV.

Pop and duck. I’ve been thinking about Christmas too. I think this is prob not ideal but I’m taking Christmas Day itself off and eating whatever I want, snacks galore (!) for one day only. The other days I’m going to stick to meals not snacks and I will aim for at least one if not 2 FDs between Christmas and new year (prob on days that I’m working)

I’ve gained this week but not a surprise with dd birthday and all the meals out, cake etc last week. I’m not panicking. Did b2b yesterday and Monday so going to aim low end tdee for the rest of the week and I should be back on business by next week.

It’s scary how easily it slips back on!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/11/2018 11:34

Well done on your SV, cheddar
Stay focused and you'll soon be in the 10 stone somethings, which would be a fab milestone

Duck The vegan FDs are only one b2b monthly
The rest of the time I stick to my usual salmon & salad, but with a veg soup as my other meal

pop If you are already within healthy BMI, then further loss may naturally slow
Some people have found 1 lb per month for a stretched target
So long as the 3-week trend doesn't go upwards again, you are fine

To target fat around the waist, try to cut down on sugary crap and alcohol, which tend to store fat there
Also no snacking ever, even at weekends, gives you more hours per day in the fat-burning mode, rather than in fat storage

Borris Don't worry;
some of the gain from a very indulgent week would be partly retained water - due to excess carbs - and partly undigested food

So, as couple of dumps should get rid of the undigested food
and 2 good FDs, with healthy NFDs within TDEE all week - & watch the weekend - should release retained water and burn all / most of the body fat gained

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 07/11/2018 12:42

Hi...I hoping for a welcome back to 5:2 with you lovely people.
I've been absent for some time not put anything on since leaving but am spending my time playing with the same 10lb that refuses to leave. 2 off 3 on and the circle continues.
First fast day tomorrow.
I've calculated my tdee 1700 & bmr 1450.
Which would be the number to use on a daily basis. My mfp calories daily are (today) / on avereage 998 so I suggest thats not enough food..
Any advice would help xx