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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 01/11/2018 21:59

Good work cheddar

HLBug · 01/11/2018 22:17

Mini FD closing on 920 calories. It could've been less but 2 chicken dippers just fell into my mouth at tea time. No idea how that happened 

Well done to all the other fasters today.

MuddyElephant · 02/11/2018 07:10

Well done snail for resisting the cake! Great FD cheddar bug and forty. Am away with friends this weekend and dinner and afternoon tea been mentioned! Will try and make sensible choices the rest of the time and hope not too much damage done!

Anyone got exciting plans for the weekend? Sending feeling full thoughts to anyone on a FD today

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 07:23

gah I hate it when that happens bug little sneaks!!!

Ooh sounds lovely muddy enjoy. I've got visitors all weekend so there will be meals out and alcohol to get me through

Good luck fri fasters Smile

harriethoyle · 02/11/2018 07:35

Managed 503 calories yesterday and an at 73.5kg this morning... My lowest weight all year! 🍾

harriethoyle · 02/11/2018 07:36

Sunday fast is being contemplated... got loads of work stuff to do, which will keep me busy. Also avoids the need to b2b on Thurs and Fri Hmm

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 08:26

yay well done harrie that's a fab SV

my scales say 1lb up this morning even though I feel slimmer Hmm, but totm all over the place at the moment so trying not to dwell on it, i think my 4lb whoosh from 2 weeks ago was so out of pattern (i have never lost 4lbs in one week!) that i'm just letting things settle, i'm still in the 11s so i'm happy seeing that number at the moment Grin trying to focus less on the number and more on the fact that my clothes are hanging off me and I'm getting lots of comments and compliments Smile

harriethoyle · 02/11/2018 08:46

@fortythree it's GREAT being in the 11s isn't it Grin I was 76kg on Monday but that is definitely totm related. I definitely retain fluid more which shows on the scales! Give it a couple of days and i bet that lb will be off...

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 09:09

Well done on your SV, harrie and on your lowest 2018 milestone
I'm doing Sunday FD - I usually do one at the weekend, to reduce the indulgence

Don't worry about a blip, 43
Your weight can fluctuate naturally 1-2 lb from day to day and irregular totm could worsen this
Just say focused on NFDs and the trend should be downwards

If you feel slimmer and clothes feel looser, that sounds like you are losing bodyfat
Why not monitor waist every couple of weeks, so you can check if you are losing inches, while the scales catch up

Well done on your FDs yesterday, snail, bug, 43, cheddar, harrie and any other Thursday fasters

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 09:12

it is harrie the scales started with a 14 when I began 5:2 earlier this year so yes, it is bloody lovely to see the number 11 instead Grin wow, 76 to 73 since Monday is amazing!!! I think i'm just starting perimenopause so i need to be prepared for these hormonal blips, its tough but i'm getting used to it!!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 09:15

Hi VERA There is no "diet list" on 5:2, just eat your normal food on NFDs, which are the 5 "maintenance" days

On the 2 FDs, do NOT have any alcohol or junk - i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, crisps etc.

Most people lose more quickly if they also keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

All you need to know is in the OP, under "How to Start" but post anytime you have more questions

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 09:16

Thanks bcf i've never really measured myself properly, i think its because i'm a classic apple shape so tummy / non existent waist always seems the last to go so never seemed much point to measure Hmm although my bum and legs and back and collarbone area are definitely much smaller Grin

ooh a sunday fd, I might contemplate a mini as my guests will have left mid morning and i might (depending on how the weekend goes) need to reign it in a bit Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 09:18

Great start, harrie
Well done on your SV

43 perimeno is a nuisance - been there, been through meno too - and I recommend trying to get to target before full meno hits

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 09:23

43 For apple shape, what helps cut the stomach fat is cutting right back on alcohol and sugary junk,
which are stored preferentially as fat around your middle.

Also cutting out any snacks between meals and adding daily 14:10 if you can most days.

Specific suggestions:

  • Are you on Dry November ?
  • Try to 2:5 sweet junk, i.e. have it only on 2 days per week and only one sensible portion on each of those days
OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 09:24

that is exactly my aim bcf to get to target (whatever the bloody hell that is) before menopause, I saw how hard it was for my mum past menopause to loose a couple of pound, I don't want that struggle...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2018 09:34

bcf your advice is so helpful, thank you Smile

I skip breakfast everyday so i naturally do 14:10 if not 16:8 some days... sugary crap is not so difficult for me to avoid (apart from the odd bit of cake) but i I LOVE CHEESE and WINE - and if i'm 100% honest, alcohol is the one thing i find quite difficult to give up on as i love it so much, although i have cut down dramatically and no longer drink in the week (unless its a special occasion) but the thought of a dry month is beyond me Shock

I would say i resist snacking 90% of the time (i know i know!) and actually it has been a revelation not to snack between meals... i love 5:2 for opening my eyes to that.

what i struggle with most is pre-totm munchies and wanting to eat loads of carbs, if i eat relatively low carb, - which i do most of the time - i feel less bloated and slimmer and healthier, but if i happen on a carb and that coincides with totm approaching then something just happpens and I can slip off the rails!! This is potentially going to get more difficult with perimenopause but i'm working on it!!!

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 02/11/2018 11:08

I am trying with no snacks, but I have just broken that this morning! Blush Extra slice of toast after school run and a biscuit. I have planned my calories for today and I should still be well within TDEE, though.

Borris · 02/11/2018 14:06

I’m preparing the food for dds party after school so have totally fallen off the no snacking bandwagon today. It’s all clingfilmed now so am going to do a 30 minute Jillian Michaels work out as that will stop me eating.

Going to skip lunch and dinner will be buffet - try to aim more at the fruit and salad(!) but realistically today is a write off!!! And I might well need alcohol after the party 😹😹

Stircrazyschoolmum · 02/11/2018 15:00

Afternoon all.

First the good news.. weekly weigh time and I’m 1lb of wedding weight!
The jeans I couldn’t get over my thighs last Xmas are fitting comfortably and I’ve realised my knickers are getting too big (!)

Now the bad less good news... Sober October ended with a bang yesterday. I went on a girls night out after a FD and ended up completely plastered. Today has turned into an accidental FD as I feel too poorly to eat anything (urgh, not proud.)

So yes, cheddar I am definitely doing dry November as I hate feeling like this. More the merrier if anyone wants to join us! (Did DH’s appointment go ok?)

quacking sorry to hear you’ve been feeling stressed, it’s not a nice feeling.

borris good luck with the party prep.. it’s a toughie. I think we all fall off the wagon occasionally.

43 I am so with you on the cheese and wine. There is an enormous bucket for Halloween candy on the table but I’m simply not interested.. blue cheese and crackers though... especially when totm is brewing (DH and I met at work btw.. I’m 41!)

Good luck to today’s fasters, well done to all the SV’s and have a lovely healthyish weekend everyone!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 16:16

Well done on your SV, Stir So near to your wedding milestone

Well done too on your jeans NSV - that's lost bodyfat -

and your Knickers Falling down NSV - you might want to treat yourself to some new ones if you ever wear skirts & dresses 😏

Enjoy the party, Borris
and make sure there is enough non-junky & filling for you personally to eat, e.g a couple of grownup beef & tomato / ham & lettuce / egg / ploughman sandwiches with wholemeal bread

If you have a decent meal, so you don't feel deprived, then maybe you can skip the wine afterwards

43 Around totm, if you are likely to be tempted, try adding healthy, less processed starchy carbs to reduce insulin peaks:

  • Boost beans, peas, lentils, because they are proven to stabilise blood sugar.
    They have lots of fibre, so help keep you full
    Aim for a portion most days

  • Try porridge for breakfast (not the instant, flavoured kind) with almond milk, cinammon & flaked almonds,

  • For other meals, have a couple slices of rye or 100% wholemeal bread / brown or red rice, not white / quinoa / sweet potato

  • Avoid mashed or deep-fried potato & veg

  • Reduce the insulin impact by cooling potato / pasta / rice and then either eeating it cold, or reheating (once only)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 16:16

cheddar Your breakfast may be too small - say an extra piece of toast needed then in future, so you can last properly until lunch.
Switch to wholemeal toast, too, as it's more filling.

everyone:
it is healthy & normal - for all the millenia of human existence before about 1980 - to feel hungry before each meal

OP posts:
elspethmcgillicuddy · 02/11/2018 18:13

Thank you for the good advice bigchoc.

I saw friends for a couple of days and it was a real catch up so I rather overindulged. There were cocktails followed by a box of roses  I felt pretty ashamed afterwards. I'm still really really struggling with not snacking.

Onwards and upwards (or downwards!) though and I have had a great fast day so far today. I've had 140cal tomato soup when the kids had their tea then I will have shakshuka and kale when we get in from roller skating club.

I ran 4 miles this morning and also spent an hour lifting weights and strength training.
I'm staying with ILs over weekend and my plan for that is NOT TO SNACK!! If it is not part of a meal it is not going in my mouth.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 02/11/2018 20:03

I was just wavering in my Dry November resolution and then I came on here and saw your post, Spilt. I am staying strong! And that’s amazing news about your SV and jeans etc! Well done you! You must feel incredible!

I’ve done a Jillian Michaels DVD (Level 1 Day 1) but that was to offset chocolate cookie related guilt. Blush I think this is a journey of discovery - fast days are the easy bit, it’s every other day that throws me! One step at a time - Dry November and no snacks tomorrow.

elspethmcgillicuddy · 02/11/2018 21:27

Well done cheddar. I love Jillian Michaels. The DVDs are really rigorous.

I'm closing the kitchen at 533. DH is sat next to me with a box of chocolates and I haven't even sniffed one! Good weekend everyone!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2018 21:46

Good FD, Elspeth with excellent exercise

Don't worry, some ingrained habits - like snacks - are tough to kick, but you are working on this and you can zap the old to form new habits

That's good you are focused again on Dry November, cheddar
Some folk find these first few days difficult, if alcohol consumption has crept up a bit, but you should find it becomes easier

Shred is a good way to shake things up and also tone up, so that's a win today

NFDs can be tough if your "normal" weekly eating (& drinking) is more than your body burns.
5:2 helps you form healthier habits, to make them genuine "maintenance" days.

NFDs are in many ways more important than FDs, because:

  • there are 5 of them and only 2 FDs, so it's difficult to lose if NFDs eat back the deficit
  • NFDs are training for how to eat in maintenance, after you reach goal
  • Also, for those who plan to lose a few stone, your TDEE at goal will be significantly lower; so, controlling NFDs trains you gradually into eating the smaller amount that your body will burn then
OP posts: