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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Borris · 29/10/2018 13:40

Hello everyone. I was going to fd tues and weds, but as I’m making dds bday cake on weds I’ve decided to have that as nfd. And then obv nfd on her actual birthday! Tho will try to be sensible re cake and send most the leftovers back with her dad (sabotage his health kick Wink)

Borris · 29/10/2018 13:40

Thinking of you and your dh cheddar

Stircrazyschoolmum · 29/10/2018 14:13

Hi all

FD here too. Finding it quite tough today, a combination of relaxing the rules over half term and the clock change I think.

I had eaten nothing up to 30 mins ago but realised I was going to be grumpy mum from hell if I didn’t have something. So I made an avocado and smoked salmon salad (with black pepper and lime juice rather than dressing) which was more calorific than a normal FD but I think I needed some ‘good fat’. I’m planning a light tea and a second FD tomorrow which should set me back on track.

borris how old will DD be? Switching FD’s sounds sensible Birthday cake is more than a treat it’s a celebration!

cheddar life at home sounds tough right now. Is there someone you trust you can offload onto? It’s important to care for the carer if you get me.

bug you are so right.. it’s all about the planning. BCF I wish I could adopt your culinary simplicity but I have a habit of over complicating things!

snail glad you had a good half term, out of season seaside can be really lovely - no crowds. Salted caramel ice cream is my fave flavour.. only as part of a meal of course! :-D

Hello to all the other Monday fasters!

MuddyElephant · 29/10/2018 14:34

Hi everyone 👋 can I join please? Looking to get started on 5:2 and would love everyone's tips 😁. Have 1.5 - 2 stone to lose and want to make a dent by christmas!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 14:52

Well done, badger Stoptober would have really helped and given your liver a much-deserved rest.

In November, concentrate on moderate drinking, i.e NHS alcohol limits even at weekends

Yes, you need to make no snacking a permanent habit, on weekends and holidays too
It's one change that can make a big difference without changing anything else

Remember: you can still have treats on NFDs, but just as part of a meal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 14:57

welcome, muddy 🙂

All you need to know is in the OP, under "How to Start", but do post if you have questions

What really helps with FDs is to boost protein and have masses of veg,
Don't graze, but save your calories for 1 or 2 meals

Also drink lots of water
On FDs only, totally cut out alcohol and junky "treats" like cake or crisps
Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit too, because the sugar spike will soon make you hungrier than ever

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 14:59

best tip for NFDs

  • keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Have your treats and alcohol only as part of an NFD meal, not as a snack

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 15:01

Good luck, Borris, Stir

stir I work on the KISS (Keep It SImple, Stupid) principle for FDs,
because that requires minimum mental effort for me

Sounds a sensible plan, Borris

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 29/10/2018 16:47

Thank you all for the messages of support. DH has now got a dr's appt tomorrow and I'm really hoping he'll take the ADs (I'm pretty sure he'll be offered them - he's had them before). Stircrazy, I will try to tell someone in RL - the warning part seems very private and shameful (not the depression part), so I'm not sure who!

Welcome, MuddyElephant!

BigChoc, I will try not to snack. Still intending to do Dry November too. Today I have resisted all the Haribo and assorted biscuits people keep bringing into the office, grr!

snailhunter · 29/10/2018 18:44

Thinking of you and your DH too, cheddar. I think many of us have been there.

Kitchen closing on around 450 - saved it all up for one meal, homemade chicken curry and then Greek yog with berries. Hasn't been difficult at all today - it's actually felt pretty good. Weird how some days are so easy and some are so tricky stir!

Stircrazyschoolmum · 29/10/2018 18:57

Sending positive vibes to DH for tomorrow cheddar the appointment seems like a proactive step forward, but make sure you take care of you too ((hug)).

Sending kisses BCF! Mwa! Mwa! My 3 hour beef and butternut stew definitely didn’t follow KISS principles but I feel full and nourished with goodness. I’m closing the kitchen on around 800 but everything I’ve had today has been nutritious and I feel in a good place.

badger I forgot to say well done on your soberoctober before. It’s gone quick hasn’t it? cheddar I’m going to continue mine into November so perhaps we can support each other.

Welcome muddy. You are in good hands here! I reckon you could make a pretty big dent in that 2 stone by Xmas. The first bit falls off pretty quickly provided you don’t over compensate on NFD like I sometimes do Shock

MuddyElephant · 29/10/2018 19:08

Thanks for the welcome @BigChocFrenzy @TooExtraImmatureCheddar @Stircrazyschoolmum

Just planned my meals for my first FD tomorrow - oats and yoghurt, soup and fruit and fish and lots of veg for dinner. Fingers crossed I stick to it!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/10/2018 21:05

Well done on your FD, Stir, snail and all the other Monday fasters

I've finished my FD too and had my soup supper after a very energetic pump class
I was busy all day and didn't feel hungry, so came in lower than planned, at about 400 cals

Good luck for your 1st FD tomorrow, Muddy
Sounds a good menu

OP posts:
elspethmcgillicuddy · 30/10/2018 06:30

Morning all. You would think by the age of 7 my DD would have adjusted quickly to daylight savings but she has woken me at 5.30 the past few mornings to tell me vital pieces of information like she has fed her goldfish 

Good fast day yesterday. I used this recipe www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/creamy-tomato-risotto which is 381kcal and one of my favourite store cupboard staples meals. I then had some cherries and yoghurt and finished on 492.

Good luck to all today's fasters.

Gildashairflick · 30/10/2018 06:32

First FD and annoyingly been awake 2 hours earlier than I needed to be 🙄 on my third cup of tea and delaying breakfast as long as I can... I have baked egg and veg muffin for breakfast, chicken cabbage and mushroom soup for lunch and grilled fish and steamed veg for tea. I've also got peppers and carrots to munch on. All under 600 (got about 80 left over for something else if I can't stand it haha!)

BigChocFrenzy · 30/10/2018 09:20

Well done on your FD, Elspeth

Wow, Gilda That's a huge amount of food for 600 cals

OP posts:
Gildashairflick · 30/10/2018 10:35

Oh is it?? I've weighed and checked everything. 150 for the egg muffin, chopped veg 40, soup 132, salmon 180 steamed veg 50, so 552 in total. I'm hoping for enough left for a squeeze of mayo on my veg tonight.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/10/2018 10:45

Lemon is good on veg

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 30/10/2018 11:27

Morning all!

Stircrazy - yes please to being sober buddies! I need someone to keep me accountable.

I'm fasting today - dinner will be salmon and kale, with lots of chilli and garlic for flavour. If I have a tiny drizzle of oil for frying the salmon in, it ought to be around 300 calories. I've had one cup of tea so far (25 cals for milk), so I ought to be able to fit in soup for lunch. It's really tricky trying to get two meals out of 500 calories!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/10/2018 12:21

morning everyone and welcome elephant
ooh that recipe looks lovely elspeth
that is very annoying gilda early night for you tonight Smile

FD today and I'm looking forward to it, I hate feeling out of control and I hate that food can still make me feel like that even after learning all these good habits! Nowt until lunch when I have my go-to subway chicken salad, then either a prawn stir fry or mushroom omelette for dinner. Got lots of meetings at work today and school disco to ferry DS from later should should be v v busy Grin

Good luck all the other tues fasters Smile

Stircrazyschoolmum · 30/10/2018 13:46

How are you getting on muddy? Having a food plan is a really good idea.. just don’t let ‘extras’ sneak in - especially if you have to feed others. (Oops.. where did that chicken dipper go?!?)

Elspeth I’m really pleased your goldfish has been fed! Grin. I am experiencing something similar with the dog and cat who are convinced I’m trying to starve them. Hmm

BCF that was a magnificent FD and a definite patisserie credit! Cake

Gilda it sounds like you have your day all planned out. I think each of us does it slightly differently. I find I’m most successful if I delay eating till as late in the day as poss as I find eating all my calories in one meal easier. This has not worked for me today. Hmm

cheddar you are having one of my fav dinners! We can definitely support each other. Smile

43 you don’t have to chaperone the disco do you? I had to once and I’m sure my ear drums were bleeding by the end! Glitterball

Looks like I’m headed for a mini rather than a true b2b today. After nothing all morning I just polished off a large bowl of warm cajun chicken salad.. I was too cold not to eat!

It’s my 14 year anniversary of meeting DH today so I feel the least I can do is eat a meal with him tonight but it’s a veg packed spag Bol and I’ll go light on the spaghetti. The nice thing about this style of eating is I’ve stopped guilt tripping myself when I go off plan as I know it will all balance out over a few days.

Good luck to all the other fasters today and stay warm! xx

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/10/2018 14:21

no way stir i would never volunteer for such things Grin i can barely cope with one 7 year old never mind a hall full of the little darlings!!

Oh yes, I think you definitely need to celebrate your anniversary with your DH, did you meet yours at University (just thinking about the timing?) I met my DH 22 years ago on Thurs - love is in the air eh Wink

Final of GBBO tonight, how will I cope on a FD Confused

Gildashairflick · 30/10/2018 14:53

I'm surprisingly no where near as hungry as I thought I'd be. Still half the raw veg let and my evening meal. Must be first FD fluke!

BigChocFrenzy · 30/10/2018 14:59

Enjoy your 14th meeting anniversary, stir 💐
(I hope he remembers the date too !)

Sounds a tasty FD menu, cheddar

That's very good so far, Gilda

You're doing well, 43 Record it ?

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/10/2018 15:34

bcf I'm sure I'll be okay so long as DH isn't munching cake, as I've said previously, if I've got to that time of night (actually, by the time DS is in bed and we've sat down its more like 8.30pm) then nothing in the world could tempt me to undo my FD Grin

Anybody else a fan? I really don't want Rahul to win, even though everyone else I speak to loves him, I find there's something really insincere about him that i can't put my finger on Hmm anyway, completely off topic, apologies - as you were Grin