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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2018 10:27

1.5 lb is a good SV, cheddar
If you stay sensible Friday and the weekend, then you would likely see further progress on your Monday weigh-in

boys Sympathy with totm
Stay focused and you know the 1st FD after totm ends should zap the retained water causing that bloat.

My advice is to forget scales during totm - the blips are just temporary water
Keep drinking water though, so your body deosn't hang on to excess water after totm

I know some here have had real problems during / after meno, but I've been lucky and I've always found that the whole "no more periods" thing trumps everything else !

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/10/2018 11:24

morning and welcome inlove and gilda
well done on your SV cheddar

NFD yesterday was a bit snacky (sorry BCF) but out with DS and DH which involved a coffee and cake (I shared one) and a late lunch out (the only thing that didn't come with chips was a jacket spud!)

NFD today but DH in work and DS in holiday club, so no snacking Smile off again with DS tomorrow but hopefully will be less difficult

FD2 planned for friday this week

Stircrazyschoolmum · 24/10/2018 16:50

Hey all

Half term here so following snail’s example and having the week off. Trying to be healthy but most cafe menus are crammed with burgers, chips and pizza or high fat sandwiches. (43 I feel your pain!)

Well done to 43 cheddar and Jolly on your SV and congratulations to Autumn on your baby news! Welcome to Gilda and chocolate

quacking I hope you are well. I did enjoy TM in a weird kind of way, it reminded me to challenge my beliefs about what I can/can’t do and showed the kids that even flabby mummies can achieve great things with the right attitude.

boys my kids would lynch me if I tried to fob them off with a banana! The houses where I live really go to town for Halloween, they usually collect enough candy to last them till Christmas!

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2018 22:08

My fav cafe, 300m along the Rhine path from my flat, has lovely salads in the evening
and some decent choices at lunchtime too

I just have to avoid their homemade cake stand and homemade ice cream stand, bith big selections

  • the owner is a master baker, with a special qualification in patisserie ....
OP posts:
OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 07:28

Hello!

May I join you all please?

This is my first fast day.

I’m bfing, but my baby is eating plenty of solids at this stage (9mo), so I’m aiming for about 800 calories today.

I have a healthy bmi, but my favourite weight is about half a stone to 10lbs lighter than I am now. I also have rosacea which is flaring up right now. I have heard fasting can sometimes help (based on internet anecdata of course Grin)!

Just having a black coffee now.

Good luck all today.

BCF, I’m a bit envious of that cafe! Sounds amazing.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 09:30

Welcome, GrowUp 🙂
That sounds a good plan
Lots of info in the OP, but post whenever you need support, or just to say how you are doing

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 09:35

Fasting can help some skin ailments, especially those that are hormone-related.
I remember a couple of women in earlier threads who found their rosacea really calmed down, so do let us know if this is a fasting benefit for you too

Good luck on your 1st FD

FD tips:

  • Drink lots of water, especislly as you are BF

  • Glug a level teasp Marmite (10 cals), mid-morning & mid-afternoon, to help avoid headaches while your body adapts to fasting.
    Its salt & other minerals replace any lost to fasting it also boosts B Vits

  • To reduce hunger, base meals on protein with lots of veg and avoid any junk, especially sweet, e.g. cake, biscuits

OP posts:
OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 09:39

Thanks!

I’m just having a red bush tea now and am planning boiled eggs and maybe a smoothie later, though maybe that’s too sweet? I’ll include veg, not just fruit.

Bolognese sauce with turkey mince for dinner. No pasta, just a salad with it.

Will drink plenty of water / caffeine free tea too.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 11:08

It's usually more filling to eat your food, rather than drink it, more bang for your calorie buck
I suggest keeping smoothies for NFDs

OP posts:
OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 11:33

Thanks I will do.

OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 11:33

I’m just concerned about not getting enough... erm... roughage you see. I might take some fybogel.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 12:43

GrowUp Veg in itself provides plenty of fibre. Just drink lots of water, about 2 litres on an FD, ideally.

I recommend you avoid taking Fubogel or other fibre supplements, because they can often cause or worsen constipation

  • duck can report how she had that problem, until I checked exactly what she was consuming

Eat the veg, instead of liquidising it e.g - if you're worried - munch some raw celery & / or carrots
Or have another salad, with say a pinch of Parmesan sprinkled over, or a few kidney beans
Maybe add peas to your evening meal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 12:45

or have a couple tbsp of Greek yoghurt with 1 tbsp chia seeds & some berries

OP posts:
OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 13:05

Really?! Yikes! I’ve always used fybogel for digestive issues and it’s worked brilliantly for me. How does it make things worse? Maybe I’m addicted Shock!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 13:35

Fibre supplements & drinks can actually block things up sometimes, as duck & others have found
They are very concentrated fibre, in a way not found in nature and sometimes the digestive system can't handle it.

Nothing to do with 5:2.
In rl in the oast, I advised a couple of low carbers at the gym who had the same issue - stopping the supplements cleared up their jams.

My advice: stick to natural fibre in veg, but just eat it, don't drink it

OP posts:
OhDoGrowUp · 25/10/2018 13:36

Thanks BCF. That’s good to know!

Just having 2 x tsps peanut butter and a stockpot in water. Will have plenty of veg with dinner.

Borris · 25/10/2018 13:52

Hi everyone signing back in after a few days away for half term. It’s so hard staying with family who are catering for you!!
I have a dinner out tonight with a friend who’s moving away. Will be driving so not drinking at least. But then back on it with FDs fri and sat and then tues and weds next week. Hoping to be back on track after that Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 25/10/2018 19:53

Sounds a decent plan, Borris

OP posts:
elspethmcgillicuddy · 26/10/2018 06:48

Hi there! Please can I join in. I am a long time lurker!

I have been doing 5:2 for several years and I have got on well with it. I have stalled a bit though and can't seem to lose the holiday weight this year. I also ran my 3rd marathon in September and was soooo hungry all the time I put on weight before that.

I have 4lbs to get back to my pre-holiday weight but ideally I would like to lose 8lbs in total to take me to 9st 10 (I am 5'8)

I know where I am going wrong. It is the snacking and it is the worst in the evening. I get on brilliantly all day and then walk in the door and start eating in the evening. I'm hoping you lot will keep me on the straight and narrow!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/10/2018 08:52

morning everyone,

bcf your local cafe sounds amazing...

Welcome ohdo and elspeth and good luck with it all...

tues, weds and thurs NFDs were difficult, it is so much harder trying to eat sensibly when you are out and about with DS and DH Shock FD today although I am craving crap already, hmmmm, going to be a LONG day! Anyone else fasting today??

OhDoGrowUp · 26/10/2018 10:09

Good luck fortythree!

I’m not fasting today, but doing sort of 16:8 - I’ve had two coffees with semi skimmed milk, but am not having food till this afternoon.

elspeth, we’re height twins! My goal weight is about the same as yours eventually too, although the last time I weighed under ten stone was about ten years ago Blush. Let’s hope this does the trick!

NFD today, but FD tomorrow for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 10:10

Welcome, elspeth 🙂
and well done on nailing your 3rd marathon.

Yup, it is very likely the snacking that is stalling progress

I suggest you plan your evening meal in advance, maybe even the day before and have everything ready to cook when you come in. Decide if you will have one glass of wine and / or pud with that meal.

When you get home, put the oven on and have a drink of water
and if you are starving, try a hot Bovril

As soon as you have finished eating the planned meal and drink, that's it, no more. No ad hoc extras afterwards.

Have a drink of water and don't even clear the dishes - clean your teeth immediately: the clean taste genuinely slashes the desire to nibble

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 10:12

Good luck, 43

Relax and enjoy your NFD, GrowUp Adding 16:8 or 14:10 to NFDs helps keep them sensible

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 26/10/2018 12:03

Happy Friday everyone!

Welcome to grow up and elsbeth.

BCF your cafe sounds AMAZING! I’m getting hungry just thinking about it!

I’ve just about survived half term and sts on weight which I’m considering a victory given it’s included pizza, burritos and Chinese! Don’t worry 43 and borris we’ll be back in the full swing of it next week!

grow up I can echo BCF’s recommendation of chia seeds. I often add them to porridge and soups for extra fibre.

Have a lovely weekend everyone. :-)

BigChocFrenzy · 26/10/2018 13:03

That's good to sts, stir
Try to have a sensible weekend and you'll be well placed to resume progress next week

OP posts: