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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
bluerunningshoes · 17/05/2018 17:42

thanks for the new thread.
fd tomorrow.
will have the next blood test end of june to see if my liver is in a better way.

FriendlyGhost · 17/05/2018 18:13

43 that’s fantastic news.
I just came on to have a massive moan. I was up several times during the night and then for the day at 5 with dd2 and i’m so exhausted that I haven’t managed to keep snacking under control. I had a mid morning free Waitrose coffee without even thinking and then was grazing while I prepared dinner for the girls. I also had a bit of chocolate with my lunch. Now I feel bloated and ashamed of myself. On the plus side i’ve only had 900 calories today and most were from fruit, vegetables and seeds. I just don’t know how to avoid snacking when I’m this tired.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 17/05/2018 18:31

Wonderful news 43 definitely worth a celebration!

secret meeting clencher over here bigchoc!

Naughtysausage · 17/05/2018 18:33

Kitchen closing on 529 (slightly inflated by an accidental half of a toddlers chicken nugget which fell into my mouth at lunchtime).

Well done to everyone else battling through a FD today!

And 43 how brilliant!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2018 18:53

Thanks everyone, the relief is immense!

Well done fasters, ghost I remember that exhaustion, and the urge to just shovel junk in to keep yourself functioning Flowers

blue hope your liver improves.

Fd tomorrow to curb weekend excess as I'm out for drinks and an Indian Saturday and afternoon tea without a hangover on Sunday! Eek!!!

WreckTangled · 17/05/2018 19:02

Dh served up chips with my pizza Blush but I've stayed below TDEE if only by 50 calories.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2018 19:08

Good work wreck Grin

Clearskies99 · 17/05/2018 19:37

Thread's moving so fast, can't keep up with you all Grin

Yes wreck hba1c blood test came up as 42, so just into the T2D at risk zone, the biggest motivator I've ever had to lose all excess weight this time fully and completely and then maintain forever with this WOE.

It's early days BCF but the zero snacking, zero sugar, zero refined carbs is REALLY helping me - all cravings vanished. Feel so much better already but I'm in this for the long haul, very determined. Have a list of mini goals, next is 1 stone down then the -5%.

Great news 43

I'd say a definite NSV mirror - you can look slimmer v quickly on this WOE.

Sympathy ghost sleep deprivation is awful.

FD finished here, pint of water on the go, teeth brushed!

Clearskies99 · 17/05/2018 19:38

Well done wreck - especially as chips are so moreish!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2018 19:39

Well done on your FD and compliments NSV, Mirror
When other people spontaneously notice you have got leaner, that shows what you have already achieved. More to come !

Congrats on your waist loss, snail
That's burned bodyfat, especially some of which will be visceral fat (the riskier kind around internal organs)
You've also passed the 1 stone loss milestone and moved well into the 9 stone somethings - well into healthy BMI too, I expect.

Good luck for your liver test, blue
You've about 6 weeks to do your best for your liver, with the healthy habits posted

Since you don't drink alcohol, concentrate on:

  • Boosting water, nutritious food like veg, beans, oily fish, olive oil
  • Boosting sleep
  • Cutting out / right back on fizzy crap, sugary treats, cheese, fatty meat (this is just for those with liver damage, not a normal 5:2 d habit)

friendly Sounds a really tough night and day, but you didn't binge and you had a miniFD so far, with some healthy food
Just move on - and cross fingers that tonight is peaceful

Lack of sleep spikes the cortisone stress hormone.
This usually reduces planning skills and self-discipline; it can also spike hunger and the urge to nibble mindlessly for comfort.

When you get the urge to snack and you're too knackered / unable to go out for a walk, then some of these tactics may help:

  • Glug a big glass of water
  • Have hot Bovril or tea
  • Clean your teeth, to get a fresh taste, or even just gargle well with minty mouthwash
  • Paint your nails or do knitting / crafts - all to keep your hands busy

Most important:
Don't forget to take care of yourself too - if you have an OH or reliable close friend, ask them to mind the DC for a couple of hours while you grab a restoring siesta.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2018 19:43

pop < looks around furtively, does secret recognition signal for Meeting Clenchers Club 👌>

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 17/05/2018 19:51

Clear 42-47.5 is what we would consider 'pre-diabetic' so I am really confident that you can get back into a healthy range and drastically reduce your risk, if not eliminate it all together (obviously there are some genetics etc involved that can't be helped!). It's so nice to read your positive attitude I wish more people were proactive like you Smile

littleladylawyer · 17/05/2018 20:16

Wooo great news fortythree!

Welcome newbies, lovely to see people trying out a new WOE. Lots of brilliant advice and support here so ask away if you've any questions and someone with all the knowledge will be along soon.

Well done to everyone fasting today. Some great svs and nsvs happening, the thread is moving so quickly I can't keep up with them all!

Feel like I've eaten loads today but I chose nice lean protein, whole grains and tons of veg so coming in under 1200 cals. It's amazing how much you can eat when you're avoiding processed/junky food

BigChocFrenzy · 17/05/2018 20:31

" amazing how much you can eat when you're avoiding processed/junky food"
Those are important lightbulb & healthy habit NSVs, lawyer

clear You sound in just the right place to really settle in for the long haul and achieve your goals.
You have the motivation of preT2, healthy habits and a very positive attitude.
Then you keep these good habits as part of a lifetime maintenance WOE

Dividing the final goals into lots of mini-milestones is exactly what we recommend:
we'll celebrate with you every 5 lb, 5kg, stone, getting into a new stone range and a big cheer when you drop into a lower BMI range.

Just as for MrD, when her asthma calms down - < waves > - you are both starting form high BMIs and are both determined to take charge of your health & weight

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 17/05/2018 20:33

👌

Summer15coming · 17/05/2018 20:48

Thanks for your reply, BCF. I actually haven't had any snacks since Saturday, and have kept well within my goals (TDEE 1780):

Friday - miniFD - 851
Saturday - NFD - 1699
Sunday - miniFD - 744
Monday - NFD - 1280
Tuesday - FD - 534
Wednesday - NFD - 1343
Today - FD - 480

When I weighed myself this morning I was the same as last Friday. I was jumping the gun, really - I will weigh and log my weight tomorrow after my second fast of the week.

Maybe I have unrealistic expectations? Or maybe I just have to plough on through the resistance.

Summer15coming · 17/05/2018 20:49

So pleased for you, 43! That's wonderful news.

hoochymama1 · 17/05/2018 20:50

Is that the sign, pop Grin
Encouraged by snailhunter's loss. I can do this Smile
Better NFD today and kept to sensible eating, no Coke Zero just lots of tea. Lovely thread.

Pinkvici22 · 17/05/2018 21:21

Second FD of the week - finishing at 434! Praying for a loss this week!

MirrorMirror21 · 17/05/2018 22:00

Fridge closed on 555. Not perfect I know, but a good start. Smile

Now to focus on no snacking over the weekend. Maybe do a mini FD tomorrow. Is that 800 cals?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2018 22:23

Hope you have a good weigh in tomorrow summer

pink well done and good luck for weigh in

mirror that is a perfectly acceptable fd.... mini fd is between 850-1000 cals

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/05/2018 22:27

Well done hoochy

Motheroffourdragons · 17/05/2018 22:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

bluerunningshoes · 17/05/2018 22:45

getting good news regarding the health of your dc is priceless. good stuff forty

Clearskies99 · 18/05/2018 05:52

Significant SV here: 14 1/2 lbs down since started eating healthily just over 5 weeks ago when I was told I was pre-T2D, 7 1/2 lbs is in the last 2 weeks of restarting 5:2. Delighted is an understatement Grin - 1st stone down, feel so much better for it. Onward and downward!

For me NO sugar/refined carbs and zero snacking are really working, and I'm not feeling 'deprived', don't actualy want them, am really enjoying wholefood Mediterranean fare.

Have a good day everyone. Keep drinking lots of water Smile