5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Fabulous advice there BCF. Thanks so much.

I’ve stripped my diet back down to basics and will gradually build it back up again into the new “normal”

I found a nice but acquired taste mash substitute. Carrot and Swede mashed with a little cream and butter.
I’m also partial to a cauli rice and will happily eat those as part of new daily habits.

Most of the time when I cook potatoes I leave the skins on and a squirt of olive oil and air fry them, saves much time.

FD done. Came in at around 500 cals. Maybe 600 tops. Struggling to work out calories for home made dinner and MFP has conflicting amounts. Anyway not going to sweat it too much. Today was a hard fast especially with having to do food shopping earlier. Bought some lovely fresh baguette, ciabatta and rye bread. All of which will have to wait till tomorrow for me. Bread is my weakness.

Hope all those on FDs are tucking into their lovely dinner under 500 cals. NFD tomorrow.

Kitchen closed here after chicken and veg stirfry and some grapes with a little greek yoghurt.

Very pleased with the eating. Have felt rotten today as have heavy period and thi k a cold on its way. Instead of run have done a hiphop tabata video and will do some yoga. Feeli g much better for the endorphins.

Now thinking about it could the binge be due to hormones? Awaits BCF excellent advice....

Well done Monday fasters

Don't worry about exact cals, slinky the range 400-650 is close enough for most folk

bestbees The hormonal changes at totm naturally bring cravings for fatty, sugary, high cal food
They also retain water for that bloated feeling, bringing a temporary blip on the scales and tight waistband
Stay focused, don't succumb to the mad munchies and that will go after the 1st FD following the end of totm

Drink water, fasters, then clean your teeth to avoid late nibbling,
maybe some pampering self-care: warm bath, spa mask, hair-wash, zapping body-hair, doing nails & toenails ……
and the best pampering of all - an early night, to maximise FD benefits

Managed another FD. 470 ish once the tasting caps are counted in. I think I am going to have to pre prep for FD to avoid them.

Kitchen closed at 479. No idea why, but today's FD was a doddle. Felt fine, didn't really think about food at all. The one thing I did differently this time was not have lunch and wait for dinner, which was lovely homemade chicken curry. Interesting.

Thanks BCF. Getting into bath in prep for early bed.

I wonder if i pay more attention to my cycle and load up on the crunch day or day before on lots of healthy fats like avo, salmon, nuts etc then maybe the craving will be less bad as my body has everything it needs. Worth a try!

I've been quiet but still on it. FD today and instead of my usual miso soup, egg and apple for lunch I had a bean chill with rice and that's all I've had all day. I actually feel better than i usually do so maybe i need ri eat at lunch. Did my exercise class this evening which was great.
Sounds like people are really having some SVs. Well done. It's always so rewarding seeing the pounds come off.

FD here today. Had cottage cheese for lunch, and remembered why I don't usually buy it - horrid stuff!

Had a much better tea of cod and tomatoes with a few gnocchi and managed to avoid snacking with a couple of marmite tastes.

FD done a smidge over 500cals.
I've just bought some low fat Cheddar from asda. Hoping it tastes as good as normal Cheddar so I can save a few cheese calories here and there.

Well done to all the fastest today.

Hideous fast day today. I was so hungry all day. Cant wait til tomorrow

Hi everyone, you're an inspiring lot! Ive made the decision to go 5:2! Never done any kind of fasting before but really think this way of eating will suit me. I'd like to lose a bit of weight but mostly want the health benefits described in the MM Horizon doc. Increased brain power and cells repairing themselves. Yes please I'll have some of that!

So... First FDs scheduled for weds and Thursday. Am seeing GP weds morning - Are there any blood tests I can request to measure the success of 5:2? Should I ask for an iron test?

Also... Am I bonkers to attempt 2 FDs on the trot? Thought this was the best way of getting the above health benefits?

NFD but ending at 919. I'm not hungry but wonder if it will affect my FD tomorrow.

I've been swimming the last 2 nights - 600 metres the first night and 800 tonight. Rest day tomorrow but hopefully another swim on Wednesday.

Some really good results on here. Hopefully my scales will start being kinder. Haven't weighed all week after feeling so deflated after my blow out weekend. Back on it now

I really wouldn't try in back to back if you have never done it before

Don’t feel defeated Mother I had a blow out on Saturday too 600cals over TDEE, tried a mini-fast on Sunday but failed and ended up at 1300 cals. I’m telling myself that it’s one weekend and it is not going to derail things!
Today has been a NFD, I’ve eaten almost exactly TDEE and had and epic club swim again 3450m in just under 90 mins! It’s nearly 700 active calories. Last week I came home and had an orange juice and a biscuit and ended up having the most horrific FD the next day so tonight I have had a slice of toast with peanut butter to get some protein in me instead, I’m fasting tomorrow so I’ll see how that feels.

FD here today. Feeling a bit crap and no appetite so have had a pear, a couple of handfuls of salt popcorn and lots of tea. Not sure of cals but def under 500! Bleugh - feel rubbish though.

Haha @DrWhy your swim makes mine look pathetic. Better than sitting watching tv though

Sorry m0ther that wasn’t my intention I’m just really proud of myself, I’ve been a swimmer since I was a child but only just got back to swimming with a club for the first time in a few years - it’s a 50m pool and some of it is with fins so cheating a bit! Still had no idea I could swim that far though! I’m utterly rubbish out of the water though, used to be able to run long distances and bike miles but nowadays I’m pleased with myself if I manage 3km. I am signed up for a sprint triathlon in June though so am going to have to make an effort on land soon too!

I've finally accepted that I just do not like running so have decided to stop trying. I'm not catching the jogging bug, it's just not happening. I'm okay with someone running with me but my only friends who can do it with me regularly are way to good.

I haven't been swimming properly since dd was born (swam a mile the night before she was born) - she's now almost 10!

Too not to!

rydal welcome!

I'm also doing 5:2 mainly for the health benefits (although I do need to lose weight), starting off doing 5:2 back to back would be very challenging!

How I go about it to maximise health benefits is 5:2 twice a week but the other 5 are 16:8, so for me that means eating in a window 12 - 8p.m so no breakfast and no snacks. Good luck!

FD for me today but feel like I'm coming down with a cold so will have to see how I go.

Welcome, rydal
Since you are doing this mostly for the health benefits, I suggest 2 non-consecutive FDs and 16:8 for the first couple of weeks, until you get used to fasting, then try b2b if you feel ready - b2b straight away would probably be too much to handle.

If you want to measure progress wrt health / risks:

iron tests probably wouldn't be relevant - though I can list some food combinations that boost iron, that's not related to fasting

If you have any of these conditions, fasting should help:
PCOS, PreT2, high BP, IBS, asthma, some skin conditions

Fasting usually reduces waist measurements, which indicates the level of visceral (organ) fat, so monitor this:
narrowest point, usually about 2" above the navel (women) or at the navel (men)
Ideal weight / height is within 0.38 - 0.45
1st target (if not already reached) is below 0.5, but do NOT do FDs if you get as low as 0.35

There's no test to measure your brain cells - the reduced risk would happen in later years, when Alzheimer's, Parkinson's etc become a significant risk

Cancer and possible dementia risk: Mosely measured IGF-1 levels in his blood after a couple of months,
but that's not a standard test, so would normally only be done privately - not worth it unless you know you are at a high risk for some reason.

DrWhy As I've posted, the evening before an FD, do avoid fruit juice, breakfast cereals, sweet treats or more than 1 small glass of wine

• the raised insulin the next day can make the FD very tough.

positivity, snail Some folk find just one meal easier on FDs, others prefer 2 meals
Whichever works for your individual body