5:2 Thread No. 72: After the winter feasting, here comes the winter fasting. We jumped into January; we won’t freak out in February and we’ll March on together in the Mighty 5:2 Army.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

That’s fantastic snail. Ah bless him.

BCF yes definitely, wholeheartedly agree. I’m just a bit glum that my body has seemly given up the fight and is hanging onto every oz at the moment.

I’ve got a good week ahead planned and will see what next Monday brings

Ugh, today is gonna be a a tough one.
It's a FD but I'm so so hungry. I'm very rarely hungry like this first thing in the morning so normally I'm fine until lunch on a FD but I think it's going to be a struggle today.

Pint of water hasn't helped. Going for a pint of coffee next to see if that helps.
Need something to help me survive soft play with the kids.

Quacking have you thought about maybe trying 16:8 on NFD it might me enough to shift those last few pounds? I eat 12-6/7 so no breakfast and no snacks and its actually hard to go over TDEE.......just a thought not for everyone I know.

That "no snacking" NSV is so important belle, both for weight loss and for longterm health

Snacking
is a comparatively recent phenomenon, imvented by Big Food in about 1980,
However, our bodies evolved over 2 million years during which food was often scarce: most bodies aren't suited to snacking.

Snacking is for those who need to gain weight, or to avoid losing
e.g. underweight DC, or huge male bodybuilders

Snacking keeps each 24-hr period "insulin-dominant" / fat storing instead of "fasting / fat-burning dominant", which is the conditions to which human bodies adapted over millenia
Fasting also enables the body to go into cell repair mode, which is important for health

I'll post those graphs again, comparing 24 hrs with 3 meals only vs with snacks

Your pup sounds so adorable, snail
I think this thread has pup-envy now

duck I'm naturally greedy, so my lifetime WO is now daily 16:8, combined with 5:2
Many other longterm maintainers 16:8 too, e.g. talkinpeace < waves >

I recommend this for most folk - or 14:10 if you find it tough at first - both for longterm weight management and health

2kids If the evening before was very indulgent, or just carby-heavy, then insulin is high the next morning, which increases hunger.
So an FD is tough

The evening before an FD, avoid:
sugary treats, heavy carb meals like pizza or double carbs, fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals
late night
and stay
within nhs alcohol guidelines for that NFD at least - a hangover must be hell on an FD

oops < smacks lazy ipad >
avoid late night nibbling before an FD

Thank BCF and Blue. I already do 16:8. I naturally fell into it as I was doing BSD prior to 5:2 and found if I ate breakfast I ran out of calories and also find the more I eat the more hungry I am so by avoiding breakfast I’m also missing out on my afternoon snack.

Probably a good thing really as my TDEE is pretty low at just over 1400.

Ah, with TDEE 1400, not much wiggle room.
Good that 16:8 is your WOE now

Checking in to FD too today. Well done to all the SVs.

2pets i too am having a very hungry morning. I am dying to have some toast but am holding strong or at least trying to. Have had a cup of tea already and will hold off till 10am for the next drink. Need to plan a nice meal for the evening to look forward to.

BCF can I ask a maintenance question please? Do we go back to our 'actual' activity level or stay one level below? So I'm down as Sedentary at the moment, which gives me a TDEE of c.1550. In reality my true activity level is probably Lightly Active (which would give me another couple hundred calories to play with each NFD)

BCF dinner last night was chicken breast sprouts and a pile of green beans and one single new potato.
So not carby at all really and no alcohol, snacks or pud. That's why it feels a bit unfair that I'm so ravenous this morning!

HLbug
I am back off maintaining at the moment because my weight crept up by a few pounds after Christmas
but in general I still aim for the sedentary TDEE as then if I have a bigger slice of something than I thought, its not the end of the world.

Also I only do MFP about one week in four as I know what size meals I need.
16:8 every day is definitely the easiest method though .....
lunch and supper on NFD
supper only on FD
brunch and late lunch on Sundays

Yay, I survived on water and coffee until lunch! Buttering the home-baked sourdough for the DC lunch was like torture.
I've got chicken wraps, only I'm wrapping in lettuce not Tortillas to save calories.
Dinner tonight is veg soup.

bug The one level lower for TDEE isn't just for maintenance:
Mosely said most people over-estimate the time and intensity of activity, hence his recommendation

Also, if you've lost a stone or more by any means, not just 5:2, then "adaptive thermogenesis" will reduce your TDEE for the first year of maintenance, or even longer.

e.g. Someone who has lost 50lb or more, may find TDEE reduced by up to 15%, compared to the TDEE of someone who has always been that weight without dieting.
This affect, after such a large loss, may take a few years to taper off, until TDEE increases to expected level.

This is a major cause of regain after dieting, even for thise who are mindful: they are sticking to the theoretical TDEE instead of their real one.

Hence an important step of maintenance is regular weighing, at least every week

so you can tune NFDs if need be
and / or do 5:2 instead of 6:1 for maintenance

The tendency of your body to return to its previous weight depends on how long you had the extra weight and how much weight it was.

If it was only a stone or so and for under a year, then 5:2 will probably have already raised the set point, so your TDEE would be at the theoretical level.

If it was a lot of weight, then it will take a while for your TDEE to reach its calculated value

If you have gained and lost a few times, then you may have noticed that losing gets tougher each time:
that's because your cumulative time at the higher weight increases for every cycle in which you regain

So, once you are goal, stick to your maintenance plan:
if you return to your old WOE, then you return to your old waist & weight - or higher

Sigh. Thanks BCF and TiP I suspected as much! No extra calories for me then...boo! Im looking at starting maintenance when I get below 9st 7lb. Might go down to 9st 2lbs but not sure yet. Currently at 9st 10lb and have now lost well over 3 stone so I'm sure that adaptive thermogenesis will absolutely apply to me.

That's why I keep stressing we all need to change longterm habits, bug
To get the most bang for out calorie buck

600 cals of cake and 400 cals of fancy latte won't fill you up at all, but it is most of your cals for the day
Some "one-person" pizzas are 2500 cals, even without wine
Then there are the giant portions of normal food we have got used to

Our "normal" has to change permanently, especially those who aren't 6', active and forever young

I love cake

That’s some food for thought for me too.

I have come to a decision today that whatever I weigh next Monday regardless off if I’m at target or not I’m starting maintenance. I am becoming obsessed with that number on the scales and it’s all it is a number. I feel I’m mentally ready now.

And I’ve been thinking about “normal” for a while my old WOE was far from normal. So my new normal is to behave myself

So our TDEE is set, I’ve decided I’m doing 2 800 cal FDs for maintenance. If I was planning to have a weekend away and going over TDEE a couple of days would I be better to pull back on a couple of NFDs to make allowance or 2 FDs at 500?

duck Those of us who do 5:2 for maintenance do so in order to be able to enjoy weekends or social events where we exceed TDEE
So I suggest you keep to your ordinary maintenance system if you go away.

Just weigh at least weekly, so you can tweak if you go off course and you should be fine.

Also, if you still use mfp for NFDs, see if you have learned to eat mindfully without these training wheels.
Most of us maintaining have learned to roughly judge FDs and NFDs without needing to count.

Yes I’m starting to get a good grasp on calorie count.
Veggies & meat I’m quite aware on. I could quite easily do a no count NFD & FD unless Im trying something new.

The only thing I don’t understand calorie wise is carbs pasta, bread, potatoes and rice as tbh I’ve really limited them since my restart in March. So that is something I need to work on. And I will reintroduce gradually.
I bought a new set of digital scales recently and I do weigh out most of my food and probably will continue as my guesstimates are lethal and quite often double what they should be.

2kids Most of us still have cake, just not daily and not such big slices - because sugar and alcohol are what most tend to store fat around your middle.

A rough recommendation for maintenance is to keep weekly sugary treats & alcohol calories below 20% of total TDEE, i.e. 80% should be reasonable sensible eating.
That could include e.g. one medium slice of cake as pud on 3 days per week, 2 biscuits as pud on another 2 days and one glass of wine with dinner on 4 nights.

In the weight loss phase, a limit of 10% is better

duck Reintroducing carbs is fine, just watch portion size and also for creamy sauces / butter on them
Rough guide is 80-100g cooked weight of rice or pasta, or 1-2 slices bread per meal
Remember if you double carb, to halve the quantities of each

Try the wholegrain / less processed versions, to reduce GI, e.g.

• brown / red rice, not white rice
• rye / pumpernickel / wholegrain bread instead of white
• boiled or baked potato instead of mash

tip: you can reduce the effects on insulin levels by refrigerating cooked starches like potato or pasta and then reheating them