5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome, ksherr
That approach sounds fine: You have the 2 FDs to burn fat, plus a good weekly calorie deficit.

The FDs need to be free of alcohol and junky treats, but if Friday is an NFD, nothing to stop you having a glass of wine.
We strongly recommend staying within NHS alcohol guidelines on NFDs, both for health and weight.

Good luck to Granny, Duck, Ksherr and all the Monday fasters

Well done on your SV, Duck
Also on your waist NSV and nutritious eating NSV - if you keep those healthy habits, then they will help longterm health and weight management

As you stuck on this weight last year, it is probably a set point which your body tries to maintain.
So patience and persistence will get you through

Don't worry, Granny coffee does not normally slow weight loss - unless you load it up with cream and sugar, or some extra biscuits creep in alongside.

Hope everyone fasting today is having a good day. I usually fast on a Monday but am fasting tomorrow instead. I'm trying to not be disheartened by my slow weight loss as I am stull losing which is what is most important. It's still frustrating though that since I weighed myself at the beginning of February I've only lost 5lbs but I'm in the "normal" BMI range now (23.6) so whilst I'd like to still lose a bit more to get into the bottom half of the normal range I think any loss is going to be slower going than it was at the start. I did lose 10lbs in the first month of this year, I can hardly complain! Maybe this week's weigh in will show a loss though after the last two weeks of staying the same. I definitely seem to stay the same then have a sudden loss then stay the same again. Bodies are strange things!

Borrowed You're mid-range of normal BMI, which is an excellent achievement.
However, loss now will be much slower because, ntbo, there is far less bodyfat available to burn on FDs.

The remaining fat is probably mostly "stubborn" fat:
these are fat cells with lots of alpha receptors (up to 20 x more resistant to fat-burning) instead of beta receptors (which release fat more easily)

This final stage takes patience and it is quite common to lose the final 7 lb or so at the rate of 1lb per month.
So, absolutely no reason to be disheartened.

To decide your target weight do consider your build, e.g. if you are quite muscular, you may have only a little excess fat left at this BMI.

Once within healthy BMI, I recommend monitoring your waist.

First target is to get a healthy waist measurement, which is defined as less than half your height.
e.g. if you are 5'4" (64 "), aim for waist below 32"

If you wish to trim down further, the "ideal" proportion is below 0.45 of height, e.g. for 5'4" your ideal waist is below 28.8"
However, don't worry if this is too difficult. Below 0.5 is good.

Measuring waist:
. women - the narrowest point, above the navel
. men - around the navel

BigChoc fortunately I take my coffee black no sugar and I rarely buy biscuits as I can't be trusted not to eat the whole packet in one sitting. In an effort to cut down 'just-in-case' I substituted two mugs for mint and ginger tea - weirdly it just made me feel hungry, so if there's no need then I won't be swapping my coffee out any time soon!

Successful first FD here albeit at around 600 calories. I run with a group on Monday evenings so whilst I usually eat nothing on a FD until my soup between 8-9 pm, I had a two egg omelette with mushrooms a couple of hours beforehand at 5 pm. No additional oil or salt, so around 150 calories. Pleased to say my usual slow pace was not further slowed due to FD.

Had to buy a different soup as it's on special offer and the lower calorie one I prefer was all sold out. Carton came in at 450 calories. So although not the recommended 500, am happy with 600 calories and 5 mile run. Hardest bit will be getting up early tomorrow so I can eat a couple of hours before the morning gym class I booked. Tomorrow evening I have a beginners 30 min kettle bell class booked too which I'm really looking forward to.

Borrowed - my BMI's very similar to yours at 23.7 - officially healthy. My waist, however, has ballooned alarmingly in the past 9 months and is definitely NOT in the healthy range, no matter how tight I pull the tape measure! I'm really hoping that the increase in exercise I've been doing since January and now returning to two FD a week will slowly shrink it back to a healthy ratio.

600 cals is a good 1st FD back, Granny

If your waist has increased, check if you need to cut down on added sugar, sugary treats, other highly processed food, alcohol etc (keep within nhs alcohol guidelines)

Check that your portion size for starchy carbs is sensible, no more than 100g cooked weight total per meal.
Also, Mosely recommends everyone not to exceed 2 portions fruit daily

If the waist expansion is due to an insulin metabolism issue, then 5:2 is often v effective at sorting that out

Fast day for me, I've started with an espresso and a pint of water, yesterday was within TDEE but carb heavy (sandwich at lunch and veg and bean pasta bake made with wholewheat pasta at dinner time) so I'm hoping plenty of water today will help move that along

My height to waist ratio is under 0.5, I'm 5'5" ish and my waist at the narrowest point is 28" I carry all my excess weight on my bum and thighs and always have done. I have a really small frame, relatively small waist, tiny shoulders and skinny wrists. I just want to shift the last 7lbs to get to the target that's in my head as it gives me a bit more flexibility for fluctuations, where I am now an upward fluctuation could take me over 25bmi. Also I feel I need to be prepared for the spread as I creep towards 40 instead of already heavier and it getting harder then

Guilty as charged on the sugary snacks BigChoc - I have an all or nothing relationship with sweets/desserts, always have done. Until my waist shrinks they're the only thing on my banned list.

I do like my starchy carbs though, so I'll keep a check on those - 100g baked potato looks very small to me though!

As far as fruit is concerned, is avocado included in the fruit list? Full of good fats .... I eat at least two a week. And what about olives? I should probably buy the book and read up myself!

Have a good Tuesday everyone, especially those on a FD.

Hello all
Reading this over Easter and my time off work has really helped to keep me on track, however I feel that now I have my head round FD I need to get better on my NFD.
I just have a question. Getting back to eating a few nuts etc is brill, I didn't have them on slimming world, but I wondered about other slimming foods.
I prefer to have less of a food item but go with full fat. So Greek yogurt, butter and things. Is this okay and what others do? Or should I be going fat free with Greek yogurt?

Granny The 2 portion limit is only for sweet fruits, because of the insulin spike.
So, enjoy your avocado nd tomato - they are good healthy choices.

That's very sensible to have wiggle room for the future, borrowed
I always recommend women aim to reach healthy BMI well before the menopause, or even pre meno, because it's much MUCH harder then.
Women who've never needed to think about diets in their lives often get a shock with the menopause

Hangry Reduced fat products are fine if you like them just as much, especially on FDs
However, If you prefer the full fat products, then do have them:
if you feel satisfied and not deprived, then it helps makes this WOE sustainable, also for longterm maintenance later.

Just check that the total meal is a sensible amount.
So, you might need a slightly smaller portion of the full fat version, or reduce something else in the meal, e.g. pudding size.

Definitely avoid any "diet" product with added sugar though - sometimes it's in the form of syrup, honey, dextrose etc Such products are less nutritious and also are likely to increase hunger.

Gosh it's quiet on here!

Best thing to be said about today is I managed to avoid buying and hence eating a bag of jam donuts after a stressful evening class and bought soup for tomorrow's FD instead.

DH had tea ready for when I got in half an hour ago. Had to remove half the pasta from the plate which he was a bit miffed about - he has no idea about portion control. And he's bought three tubs - yes three tubs - of my favourite ice cream. Have moved them to the spare freezer in the garage so I don't have to look at them and hear their pitying cries of "eat me". So pleased he's on board with my wanting to shift a bit of weight.

So, how's everyone else doing?

I'm back with my tail between my legs. After my last post of "I've changed my diet around I eat clean etc"
Tuesday I went out for breakfast. I chose breakfast thinking hopefully won't do too much damage. It wasn't greasy food but it was all you can eat. I didn't go OTT but then had a kebab for tea. You know the proper chicken kebabs with salad and I made home made wedges just a potato slices in my air fryer With a tiny spot of oil.
Didn't think that was too bad, I was wrong.

Up in the night with horrific stomach cramps. But once that past I was fine so did a FD.

I love the salad boxes from the kebab shop so bought a extra one and had that for tea yesterday and really enjoyed it.

I've never done a back to back fast. I've done 2 already this week but plan a mini for today as I'm in the zone now and I'm so close to breaking into that next stone catagory.

good luck to all the Thursday fasteners.

Just down 0.6lb today but I'll take it as it got me down into the next stone so feeling happy - haven't seen that for a while! Am busy this weekend with trips out and want to avoid gaining before hols, so I thought I would try 2 mini-fast days today and Monday, then get a FD under my belt on Tuesday before I leave on Weds. Hopefully this will avoid any gain over a busy weekend.

I already have my first FD planned for after I get back, and I will do MFP for a couple of weeks just to make sure I'm obeying the TDEE and get back into good habits. Also need to think about being more active now I'm used to the fasting system. I am at a desk all day so need to make sure I get up and walk around more often.

Merricats it's such a good feeling to see the scales down into the next stone, no matter by how much!

Quickduck - I've been back like a boomerang so don't feel bad about it. There's always a warm welcome and plenty of support. I do still follow this WOL (roughly) when I'm taking a forum break, but the bad habits have crept back in and whilst I ignored the slow weight gain as I was still within normal BMI, the 2kg I put on in the last 6 months have gone straight to my waist, which is now more than half my height. So my aim here is to try to lose waist inches. I'm still baffled how 2kg can put on 4", but alas trousers which were previously loose now no longer button up, so I'm back here for some tough love!

As for 'clean' eating - I hate this phrase. Latest marketing con to sell diet books in my opinion. Just something else which makes you feel a failure if you dare to put a spoon of (dirty) sugar in your tea instead of the tears of mermaids gathered at dawn. I have a friend who 'clean' eats. She's a lovely person, but goes into intricate detail of the 'clean' ingredients in the many cakes and biscuits she generously offers around and does her best to make converts.

Sorry if I've offended anyone - just my opinion; whatever works is fine by me. I'll disappear for now and hopefully report back later on a successful second FD. Feeling quite hungry at the moment - my mother would ask me if I've been in the knife box - so going out to distract myself and hopefully come back in a better mood!

instead of the tears of mermaids gathered at dawn

Well done on your SV, Merri
Breaking through into the lower stone range is very motivating

Granny If your DH normally shops and cooks like that, no wonder the inches crept on !
He sounds a lovely bloke, but rather too generous when ladling out.

Whether it's "clean" eating, or the normal dirty kind:
when a group is eating together, the detailed analysis of food choices and how each ingredient is sourced / maltreated is usually only interesting to the person who is talking endlessly about it.

Maybe you overdid the amount, Duck, or even had a touch of food poisoning,
At an all-you-can-eat, the food can get a bit mauled around with everyone digging in. Also, you don't know how long it has been warmed up, or indeed reheated from the day before.

Granny re waist gain: If you've been enjoying a lot of sugary "treats" and alcohol, then excess calories from both of those are preferentially stored around the waist.

That's particularly so at our age: menopause worsens insulin metabolism.
Hence, your body can't handle the amount of such treats that it used to.

Longterm weight management post-meno unfortunately requires a permanent change in habits

I think your spot on about the possibility of food poising BCF, as soon as I wrote that post this morning I felt awful and I've not been well since.

RE the clean eating comment I meant no junk. I'm pretty much just eating plain meat, veggies a small amount of potatoes and a tiny amount of fruit and Greek yogurt.

I've been informed we have a party to go to first week in June, 6 weeks so I'm hoping for at least another 7lbs off by then. It shal give me a big push and something to aim for anyway.

I think it good to have targets don't you? If I don't do it, then so be it but it's nice to aim for something isn't it?

I am with you on the targets quckingduck. I even have a spreadsheet of my exercise since January to keep me focussed. And a target of 200 hours for the year. Also, apologies for the comments about clean eating, I didn't mean to offend. I like the way we each find our own way of managing 5:2 and sharing and suggesting solutions which work for us. I think my hunger grumpiness got the better of me and I was cross on your behalf that you felt you had let yourself down in some way, when the whole point of 5:2 is that you can have your cake and eat it. Anyway, take good care of yourself - food poisoning is horrible and I hope you're feeling better soon. Looking forward to a party is great motivation!

BigChoc - I can only partially blame my OH - after all it's me who eats the stuff! Anyway, he's finished off the leftover pasta with his steak tonight so it's not gone to waste. (Or to my waist). My downfall is supermarket special offers - I don't do buy-one-get-one-free, but I do allow myself to get seduced by 'half price' cake slices, bags of sweets and crisps. Basically, I have been a bit of pig with the sweet stuff and my waist is showing it's displeasure.

Had another NSV today. Put my ever-so-tight-round-the-waist capri skins on to go on my reluctant run this afternoon and discovered they are no longer ever-so-tight! Snug, but not tight.

Finished today's FD on 520 calories, so a good day.

GrannyG- are you a runner? Do you run fastdays too?
I did some last year went from zero to 45mins running non stop but didn't stick to it. I fear I will be back to the beginning again but I'm sure I was in better shape last year with it. Legs more toned. I struggle with big legs no matter what my size is but they were better. I should try and start again.

5 weeks Doing 5:2 and 10.6lbs down. This morning I didn't just break into the 9stone catagory but my bmi has gone down under 25 double scale victory.

What's all your favorite meals on FDs? I joined a FB page for 5:2 and wow they really are creative. I have the same mushroom and ham omlette each time.

I am struggling so much with my FD today, I’m feeling like I can’t do it. I’m on 300 calories currently and don’t know if I can just have a tiny dinner and then go to bed. I slept terribly last night and the hunger is really nagging at me, no amount of water or herbal tea is hitting the spot, nor is telling myself I can have it tomorrow! I think the best option is going to be to turn today into a mini 1000 calorie fast day and do the same again on Sunday so I’ve had one fast and two mini fasts this week.

borrowed some days are just hard and I remember finding mid-afternoons the hardest. How easy is it to distract yourself at the moment? It really boils down to mind games with your brain sometimes. Would you be able to compromise on 750 for the day - so a reasonable calorie deficit but enough for a protein packed evening meal which should fill you up? Whatever you decide, I'll be thinking of you and hopefully BigChoc will be along soon to give better advice.

quckingduck I wouldn't exactly call myself a runner - it feels like running but I've been overtaken by leaves on only slightly breezy days! y I've been running on and off for about 7-8 years. After a stretch of illness and inactivity for the last three months of 2016 I started C25K in January taking the full 9 weeks using an NHS podcast. If you're thinking of taking up running again, I thoroughly recommend it. I also introduced conditioning (at home) twice a week. Alas as my exercise minutes increased so did my snacking on sweet sugary treats and pastries (for being good!) and so did my waistline. Hence, the return to the 5:2 forum!

Am still running three times a week and have 10k in July. For all I often hate going out on a run, it's the best exercise for me in respect of weight bearing cardio and definitely tones the hips and thighs.

I have in the past run on FD, just having a small protein shake afterwards with the majority of calories in a single evening meal. However, as I'm easing myself in, I've split my FD meals this week into two, having the first 2-3 hours before my run and the second late evening. I think psychologically this works for me as I don't feel I'm running on empty.

My FD meal is usually very boring! I don't really want to have to think too much about it, so I have a 'go to' soup which is 240 calories for the whole pot and with whatever calories I have left over for the day I add lots of vegetables and a bit more protein.

10.6 lbs down in 5 weeks is excellent and congratulations on getting under 25.

BigChoc - can't remember but is it usual to feel cold and not sleep very well after a FD?