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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2016 11:31

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Cozytoesandtoast00 · 13/01/2017 19:47

I've had the same blankface
Tip for getting to sleep. A teaspoon of Magnesium citrate powder

before bed ( you can it on amazon)
Works amazingly for me and good for you.
Doesn't help with middle of the night wake ups though!
I think the other advice is no screens /exercise before bed and no caffeine.
Apparently it gets better!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2017 20:08

Blank, cozy Your sleep should improve after a few weeks.

What helps sleep:

  • No caffeine - coffee, coke etc - after 3 pm
  • Stop exercise at least 3 hrs before bed
  • If you have a big evening meal, stop eating 3 hours before bed.
  • Don't have a late night alcoholic drink. It also disturbs sleep. Have any alcohol as part of lunch & supper, then no more.
  • Do not nibble on junk either after supper. Sugary / carby crap spikes insulin and can keep you awake.
  • Stop screens - phone, tablet, TV, gaming etc - at least 1 hr before bed
  • On FDs, if you are able to save all / some of your 500 cals for supper, that avoids late hunger and can help sleep.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2017 20:12

Friday silly trivia Grin
Find which slebs have the same BMI as you: http://www.supernifty.org/bmi.php

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 13/01/2017 20:25

Blankspacebaby I did not know a Fitbit recorded how many hours sleep you get!

Tempted to get one for that alone.

Cozytoesandtoast00 · 14/01/2017 09:08

I'be finally read the whole thread and you really are an inspirational lot! 😊
Any tips for feeling ravenous in NFD's? Does it pass? Thanks.

Toomanywheeliebinsagain · 14/01/2017 09:37

Weigh in today, as expected I've plateaued. I'm wondering whether a week of 3:4 could move me on

blankspacebaby · 14/01/2017 09:43

Thanks for the tips, I'll look at what I'm eating & drinking in the evening & see what I can change. Nothing else about my routine is different so hopefully if will get better in time.

ohidontknowwhattochoose · 14/01/2017 19:44

Hello all...
Since joining I've been too busy to post or read very much... I've managed a FD but it was closer to 700 than 500 but I'm getting there. Scales showing a 3lb loss so pleased with that but know that will be water and need to get my finger out! Hope everyone else is doing well, going to get boy in bed and read back thread with a glass of fizz Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 21:43

Well done on your SV, Dontknow

Wheelie I'd say a plateau is 3 weeks without change
Weight - whether on any diet or not - can vary a few lb per week due to hormonal swings, retained water, undigested food etc. So this can easily disguise an average 1lb weekly loss.

I recommend people keep 4:3 in reserve as a plateau buster, but before you try it:

  • Are you overeating significantly on NFDs ?
    This is often the case when weight loss stops - the first loss is the "easy" fat, but for the remainder you may need to modify some NFD habits.
    I suggest you calculate TDEE and then mfp for a week, as a reality check

  • If you think the NFDs are OK, have you had 3 weeks without loss ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2017 22:10

Cozy If you are hungry on NFDs:

  1. Are you within your first month on 5:2 ?
    If so, your body may still be adapting to fasting and especially to fasted running

  2. Are you eating too little ?
    After the first 2 weeks, unless you have a few extra stone, you may feel hungry if your rate of loss is more than 1.5 lb weekly

  3. Are you combining 5:2 with other changes ?
    . If you want to start low carb or 16:8 as well, or increase exercise, it may be best to adapt to one change at a time. So, first get used to 5:2, then add one more change and adapt to that etc.
    . Also, even if you have an indulgent social event, don't add any extra FDs or mini-FDs at this stage - wait until you are used to fasting

  4. Are you snacking / nibbling between meals ?
    Then STOP !
    Snacks keep insulin raised, which hinders burning fat for fuel and keeps you hungry

  5. Are your NFDs high GI / junky ?
    Examine the type of food - & drink - you are consuming, especially the NFD following an FD:
    . Check you don't have too much added sugar - sweets, choc, cake, biscuits, lattes - which would spike insulin and soon make you hungrier.
    . Try not to eat other junk carbs - pizza, crisps, deep-fried food etc.
    Fast food, ready meals, sauces can have a lot of hidden sugar too.
    . Go lower GI & higher fibre - boost protein, veg, beans, lentils, peas, plain Greek yoghurt
    Swap to wholegrain bread, porridge instead of sugary breakfast cereal
    Don't eat more than 2 portions fruit per day, or 1 portion plus a small juice

  6. Are you drinking your calories ?

  • Lattes & smoothies are often high cal & sugary, so you are soon hungry again
  • Alcohol also has many calories and is called an "appetiser" for a reason. Keep within nhs guidelines.
OP posts:
Cozytoesandtoast00 · 15/01/2017 07:51

Thanks Bigchoc for your knowledgeable advice! 😊
It was only my first week, so yes could explain why I felt sooooo hungry the day after my second fast.
I'm determined to stick with it this time as this woe seems to make so much sense to me. It just seems so long ago since the first time. I've forgotten how I felt in early days!

MelanieCheeks · 15/01/2017 08:00

Hi gang!

Can I ask a question about food - specifically Maggi So Tender Garlic chicken. It is seasoned sheets of paper that you wrap around a chicken breast to cook it in. But I'm confused about the calorie content. The nutritional details on the packet says 319 cals, but with 25g carbs. That doesn't seem right for a seasoned chicken breast!

Reading the small print I THINK the nutritional values given are for their "serving suggestion" which is with potato wedges and salad.

MFP has a "corrected" value for the sheet alone at 23 cals (which seems more likely), and I can weigh my chicken and add that separately.

Does that seem right?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 08:51

Melanie Your Maggi So Tender Garlic chicken:
"1/4 total meal made following recipe on-pack" so the recipe meal, not the pack
https://www.maggi.co.uk/products/so-tender/italian-herbs-chicken/

Do check that you are genuinely eating what they call a ¼ meal - 6.7 g sugar is ok for a whole meal, but not 4x that.

Personally if I have to add chicken breast, I'd just add my own herbs too and bake in the oven, maybe with Mediteranean veg and a dash of coconut / olive oil.
This packet has crappy ingredients:

Palm oil = processed fat to enable long shelf life, like transfat in how it worsens lipids (LDL particles), also bad for the environment
Added sugar, dextrose, starch are typical of heavily processed fast food, not great.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 08:58

I'm much more easy-going about ingredients when I have no cooking to do, i.e. a takeaway, or just sticking a dish in an oven or microwave.
However, if I have to add the main ingredients and stand over them cooking, I don't see the convenience of a packet.

OP posts:
MelanieCheeks · 15/01/2017 13:00

It's leftover from something else-I'm very bad at throwing food away! But I probably won't repurchase. I'm planning to have it with a lovely mound of steamed kale and courgette.

Emison · 15/01/2017 16:29

It's my first FD since Christmas. We had a lovely Christmas but then my little dog died just after New Year and it really put me off track Sad I've been so heartbroken that I either couldn't eat or it was easier to sit down with a slice of cake. I 've put on 7lb and ,yes, I'm angry at myself but I know I will lose it. So not quite back to square one and starting on my FD about a week later than planned but I feel ready again to do this.

Clearskies99 · 15/01/2017 17:13

Aah Em I'm so sorry, how sad. Good luck with getting going again with FDs.

Emison · 15/01/2017 17:28

Thank you Clearskies99. It was completely out of the blue but the vet found cancer while she was sedated for an unrelated condition. I thought I was bringing her home and instead had to give my permission to have her PTS. It's really knocked me for six but I need to take control again and today's the day.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2017 18:38

So sorry about your little dog, Emison Flowers
It's completely understandable that threw you off track, so < stern voice > you are not to beat yourself up about a very short relapse.
You needed time to grieve and you will continue to miss her for some time, but just remember what a lovely life you gave her.

I hope your FD today is going well.
Once you nail a couple of FDs, your fasting system should kick in again and ... you're back in the fasting swing Smile

OP posts:
Emison · 15/01/2017 19:16

Aww BigChocFrenzy thank you. She was an old girl but she was still my baby. Today's FD has went really well and my kitchen is closed at 475 calories Smile

mendandmakedo · 15/01/2017 22:16

marking my place and I going to start doing this diet from tomorrow which will be the first fasting day. my clothes are getting tight! I will read the thread tomorrow evening.

mendandmakedo · 16/01/2017 08:01

weight 10st 11. height 5ft 2. I am fd today. Have measured my milk for tea, plan to have porridge made with water for lunch and stir fry dinner with soy sauce and those bare noodles. will be about 470 calories. I am working today so hoping to be able to keep busy but I am hungry already....... you are all so inspirational so hoping all the stories on here keep me going. Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 16/01/2017 08:15

Welcome, mend Smile and good luck on your 1st FD
Sounds a good plan.

Well done yesterday on nailing your 1st FD back, Emison

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 16/01/2017 12:03

Good luck Monday fasters.
I'm going for gold today. Nothing till tonight.....she saysGrin then a nice dinner of fish & vegetables.
We can do this together and I will be in the 11s by easter.(10s by summer would be amazing)

FiveTwoFaster · 16/01/2017 16:14

First FD of the week going fine so far - the mantra "you can have it tomorrow" is excellent for fending off mistakes.

Happy fasting all!

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