5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Poppies You may be having problems adapting to low carb NFDs, because the day after an FD your glycogen stores would be near empty.
I suggest you increase healthy carbs on the NFDs directly after an FD:
So, e.g. add a slice of wholegrain bread and grilled tomato to your breakfast eggs - and abolish the snack ! - and a smallish portion of brown rice / sweet potato / quinoa to lunch, plus a piece of fruit for pud, then add another small portion of carbs to supper.
Then you can do full LCHF on the other NFDs.

Fast day went very well yesterday. Had vegi soup and a prawn omlette with spinach for dinner. Woke up feeling a bit weak, especially after my run! I'm sure it's just getting used to this way of eating..
I hope you're all having a good day 😊

It has been a very long day with only 4 hours sleep - thanks DD. But I did manage to lose 5 lbs, I am guessing this is all water weight as I do not believe such a thing is realistic. But will probably have put it back on by tomorrow as I have had to eat all day just to keep me awake, typically lots of driving and meetings and trudging round grubby industrial plants. What a life, good start followed by chaos 😞. I've got the dinner wotb colleagues element to get through next, then may finally be allowed to go to sleep.

Second FD of the week completed. Not too painful but will go to bed very early and look forward to tomorrow! It's good to have got them out of the way at least.

It's good to remember eggs - I keep forgetting how good they are for filling hot food on fast days.

I'll check in next week - I am contemplating skipping breakfasts to sort of help things along a bit but the very glory of 5:2 is how unrestricted it feels so I won't force the issue. I feel that if I made decisions like cutting carbs and doing 16:8 and watching cals too much I would descend into a giant English muffin and Nutella binge extravaganza. So just moderation in all things!

Keep up the good work everyone!

Well done on your SV, Round
Poor you, such a busy day on so little sleep
Even on such days, try to have meals without snacks or nibbling between - you'll feel more satisfied, the food will probably be more nutritious and you'll eat less overall.

FiveTwo Unless you are in a desperate hurry or have a condition that makes losing tough, I recommend classic 5:2 with "normal" eating on 5 days. It's the simplest and lowest stress WOE.
Longterm, most people average a 1 lb weekly loss on that, which is a nice easy pace.
No need to look at the NFDs, unless you find you are not losing at the rate you expected

Well done on your FD and run, cozy
The NFD after an FD you may need more carbs. The morning run probably nearly emptied your glycogen stores and you won't have adapted yet to burning bodyfat for fuel.

Before your run, I suggest whizzing up some plain Greek yoghurt, berries & cinammon. Or almond milk, banana & cinammon.
If you don't fancy even liquid fuel, then glug a double espresso 10 minutes before you run. The caffeine burst helps mobilise bodyfat stores for fuelling exercise. Then have breakfast afterwards.

On other NFDs, you'd be ok skipping breakfast, but probably not right after an FD, especially when you are not to fasting.

----> especially when you are not used to fasting

It's so cold out... checking in.. 2 minis done on #3 today. Had some cards last night as reading it I'm getting the same issues as poppies, empty tanks but full feeling.
Arranged a buddy up at the gym as it keeps me away from the fridge
Good luck Thursday faster so. X

* carbs not cards

Thanks big choc. I showed a modicum of restraint at the dinner. But did succomb to 2 vodka slimline. Another night of 4.5 hours sleep. Can't sleep in hotels. And a FD which again a start starving 😔. Feeling rather miserable.

Was supposed to fast today after a successful FD on Tuesday but woke up this morning and knew I couldn't. Will have to do tomorrow. Finding this last 6lbs really hard. Must have plateaued

Wheelie The last few lb typically come off much more slowly, if you are now within healthy BMI. For folk aiming for say BMI< 22, it can be 1lb per month

What helps - You may need to review some habits:

• No snacking between meals or grazing. Have any treats as part of a meal and eave at least 4 hrs between meals
• Stay within nhs alcohol guidelines - alcohol stops fat-burning for several hours, because the liver prioritises processing the toxins. In fact, alcohol tends to switch the body from fat-burning to fat storage
• Avoid too much added sugar / sugary treats - these spike insulin and switch you to fat storage
• Drink more water - start each day with a glass and keep glugging
• Boost HIIT, e.g. add Mosely's 5 minute Fat Blasts for 3-5 days weekly. Or change a regular running day to sprint intervals.

If you already have these hood habits, then it just takes patience and persistence

Good habits < snarls at blushing iPad >

Good luck, Thursday fasters Stay focused and ... you can have it tomorrow

Hope everyone is safe and warm! I had a very icy cycle home. Good FD so far helped by being too busy to stop at work!

Thanks. I have just eaten cake all day. Not helpful. Yep for many people I would be considered very healthy weight. I'm 5ft 11 and 11st now thanks to 5:2. I really wanted to get to 10st 8 but maybe that is going to be v tough

Toomany if it helps I'm the same height as you but five stone behind

Glad you made it home safe maybeshesawomble!

After your sugar advice BC I've only had one small biscuit in the last FOUR DAYS!

I must admit that at first I thought I'd never manage to do 2:5, and maybe for now 3:4 is more realistic for me, but I'm going to give it a try anyway. Heaven knows I consumed enough sugar to last a year over Christmas!

Successful FD here so far. Haven't eaten anything yet, but will do once the kids are in bed. I have a pot of lentil & sweetpotato soup on the hob.

I really need to drink more water. I used to drink loads and developed a real thirst for it, but when I was pregnant it made me puke and I've never got back into the habit.

Well done fellow fasters, nearly there!

Flippin eck this thread has moved along somewhat since I was last here (in a different guise), lots of new people good luck to you all.

Checking in to get myself back on track. Foolishly got on the scales on 2nd January and it wasn't pretty. A gain of 3kg but I refuse to believe that was 3kg of fat. At least half must have been water weight and a shedload of booze and food sloshing around after the festive season. Couldn't get it together last week but have successfully done two FD today. I'mnot going to weigh in til the end of next week after another couple of FD. Hopefully I'll be back to where I was before Christmas. Then not sure, I think another 3-5kg off would be good then it's onto the very scary wirld of maintenance.

Thanks for the great advice Bigchoc
It certainly did feel like I was running on empty and I think those suggestions may help.
End of my second fast day today. It was tough but manageable. Lots of coffee, chai and water pulled me through. Even managed that suggested strength session! 😊

You may get there quicker ...

FD today. Yesterday's was abandoned quite early on. Never tried to do a Fri before, it is psychologically quite painful, this is the start of the weekend and should be celebrated. But I shall celebrate in spring when I am all slimline and sylphlike 😀. And at least I have finally had some sleep!

Good luck fellow Friday FD'ers.

Good luck, Friday fasters.

Round Our lovely talkinpeace (about 4 years on 5:2) recommends one day per week when we eat what we want.
I usually do a Saturday or Sunday FD - I found my weekends were sabotaging my WOE and this brought them under control.

Well done on cutting back the biscuits, Maz
It took me a while to 2:5 sugar, but once I psychologically accepted it, my nutrition improved a lot (my username still reminds me I once was a sugar junky)

I recommend instead of biscuits you try a few squares of plain dark choc, at least 70% cocoa. That has good antioxidants for not as much sugar, so it's not sweet junk.
I trained myself to like the 90% cocal Lindt Mild Excellence, which has hardly any sugar and is actually healthy in sensible amounts. So, I can have a couple of squares most NFDs.

btw, post-meno, at age 60, 5'3" I have to be much stricter than younger folk, so don't think my 5:2 is necessarily typical.

FagAsh you've done well to get right back on 5:2 after the vacation.
Don't worry, that holiday gain is mostly retained water from excess carbs, plus undigested food etc.
If you weigh after a couple of FDs, your body should have released that water and burned a bit of bodyfat.

Hi all

Day 5 and all has been going well, done 2 fds without hitch and if anything I'm so used to dieting at 1200 cals that on my nfd I'm ending up with cals to spare!
However I have had the worst week of sleep ever - weird dreams and then not being able to get back to sleep. My fitbit is showing i'm getting about a 3rd less sleep than normal. Does anyone have any tips please?