5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your SV, Clear That's a great result over the holiday period.
Stopping the cravings is an NSV.
Some people on low carb, like you, feel hungry while full . This is probably the body still getting used to obtaining its fuel from fat instead of from carb intake.
If you are eating below TDEE, that fat will be burned from your body stores, rather than only from your intake.

It may take patience to come through the plateau, but keep reminding youself that you are in a much better place than when you were craving & gaining.

That's very good you've boosted exercise, so you've achieved a health NSV too. HIIT is especially good for boosting fat loss in those who are insulin resistant.

I recommend Mosely's Fat Blasts, see the OP in 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 These are intense interval training bursts of maximum5 minutes, on 3-5 days per week.
What might be suitable for you: punching the air, pressups, tricep dips, squats

Welcome, blankspace and well done on a very good 1st FD.
On 5:2, the 2 FDs are the "diet days" and the 5 NFDs are "normal eating" days, which just mean you don't eat back the FD deficit.
So, Calculate your TDEE (daily calories to maintain) setting the activity level to one level below what you think and then this TDEE is what you roughly aim for on NFDs.

If you are used to mfp for standard (daily calorie-reduced) diets, then your TDEE is probably a few hundred calories above your usual setting.
e.g. if you used to set it to 1200, you may find it needs to be 1600 or 1700 on 5:2 NFDs.
This gives a good contrast to the FDs and makes this WOE sustainable & enjoyable.

Welcome back, Maz and well done on the kettlebells.
It's good you've got right back on the fasting track after the holidays. So, those sugar habits won't yet be ingrained and you won't have so much to undo.
A couple of FDs should help crack sugar cravings, if you try to eat more nutritious meals on the NFDs between.
So, protein (especially fish), plenty of veg, sensible portions of starchy carbs, 1-2 portions fruit daily.

I found it useful to 2:5 my sugar habit, i.e. only have sweet things like donuts on 2 days per week. This is fine if you are just greedy like me ! but still have a healthy insulin metabolism.
Of course, for someone with significant insulin resistance / sugar cravings, 2:5 might not work and it certainly won't for anyone who needs to low carb.

Brilliant thank you! Looks like my TDEE is 1664 so I'll change it now and see how I go.

BFers should start at 1000 cals on FDs.
You can optionally gradually reduce to 700 cals, but do return to 1000 cals if this gets too tough, especially at growth spurts (of lo not you !)

Exercisers (non-BF) still only get 500 cals on FDs (600 for blokes)

Thanks for the info BigChocFrenzy
Very helpful indeed 😊😊
Will see how it goes and book a strength training class in...
I made myself a big vat of Vegi soup today, which tastes fab!
A tip which I found very useful last time round for having difficulty sleeping...
a large teaspoon of Magnesium Citrate powder an hour before bed.

Hi all! Have read of a lot of your previous threads and found it very motivating.

I have five stone to lose, not diabetic but BMI 30. I've done six days on MMs BSD, the 800 cal for eight weeks version.

I plan to stick to this and then go to 5:2 after. I read in one of the other threads about the thing where your body adjusts to think it needs less calories, stopping weight loss (hope I've got that right and sorry for lack of proper name for it!)

I definitely think this has been a problem for me in the past. Do any of you have any advice on my current plan, does this sound like a sensible way to go?

Does anyone have any advice about eating lunch out? I've got a work event on Thursday, my next fast day - there's a group of 6 of us and we'll all go out together; it would be pretty anti-social not to go. I often just cheat on days like this but have been rubbish over christmas and want to get back into doing it properly - but it would be really hard to change the day this week.

I was thinking that if I use all 500 cals just for lunch there should be something somewhere that would suit. Any thoughts? We're in the city centre so there are a lot of options. If I can persuade them to get food to eat in I should be ok but going out to a restaurant would be more tricky.

iismum unless you want somewhere more upmarket how about going to Pizza Express and having a leggara pizza, which come in around 500 cals?

Mmm, thanks, good idea. Any other suggestions of things that might work if Pizza Express isn't a hit (there's one a bit near but not that close).

iismum it's not particularly restauranty but you could go to itsu or in fact any sort of sushi type place. But itsu certainly have lots of filling lunches for less than 500 Cals.

Hello all, I'm back after a few weeks away, managed three mini fast between Christmas and New Year but the carbs and the Quality Streets got the better of me! Have completed two back to back FDs this week (the second today was an accident as I'm so busy at work, I won't be making a habit of back to back days).

Great to see so many new people on the thread. Good luck to all of you, I hope you start to feel the benefits soon.

Bigchoc I'm hugely jealous that you have snow!!!

Hi Accio I gather you have had a week on the BSD and plan to complete the remaining 7 weeks first.
The BSD can be useful for those with quite a few stone to lose, even if you aren't in danger of T2, because you can really lose a lot in those 8 weeks. So, it can kickstart your weight loss plan.

What you are worried about, often called "starvation mode" happens much less often than people think and only on prolonged poor nutrition diets.
The BSD is designed to supply plenty of nutrients, so if you follow the BSD rules about types of food - "low carb Mediteranean" - you would not risk starvation mode or deficiencies.

Mosely says after the initial 8 weeks, you can choose to stay on the BSD, or you can relax a bit and move to the 5:2 BSD (same low carb food each day, but you only have 2 x 800 FDs, with 5 NFDs around TDEE)
It's entirely personal preference.
Whatever you decide, good luck on achieving your goals

Polpette I HATE snow & ice. We should swap !
In fact I've taken today & tomorrow as holiday, to avoid the commute. I walk or cycle and only have 4-5 km stretches, either to work or gym. So, I normally enjoy my journeys, but not in snowstorms, or with thick ice.

Thanks so much BigChoc, sounds like I am on the right lines. It was adaptive thermogenesis I meant, managed to find the right words! I was reading on a previous thread that I might need to adjust my TDEE down a bit when move to 5:2 (a few weeks before I need to worry). Am I thinking on the right lines there or have I got it muddled? Thanks so much for your help.

iismum This is from the OP under "How to Start": Some options for FD Takeaways & Restaurants

Commuting in snowstorms doesn't sound like fun - hope you get to enjoy the holiday you've taken at least.

Hurrah, first FD finished at 497 Cals. Go me! And a metafit class, double go me!!

I am rather pleased with myself incase you wondered. Now off to bed with me before I eat my own arm.

Accio Ok - I've referred to "adaptive thermogenesis" on several of these threads.

It just means that anyone who has lost more than about a stone of weight - by any method whatsoever - WW / SW / low carb / 5:2 / BSD etc - will find that their real TDEE is lower than the calculated one, i.e. lower than someone who is that weight naturally, without dieting.

It's caused by the body slightly lowering its metabolic rate, in an effort to return to the previous weight.
The effect is increased if you have been been overweight many years and lose a lot of weight.
Losing 50lb or more will typically reduce TDEE by up to 15% compared to the calculated TDEE for that weight.
This effect should diminish over time, so your TDEE gradually increases to the calculated value.
However, it will take at least a year and maybe several years.

This is in addition to the fact that TDEE will be lower at a lower weight anyway,
e.g. a 10 stone person burns much less than they did at 18 stone.

Note: Adaptive thermogenesis is in addition to lowered TDEE from muscle loss.
However, Intermittent fasting diets, e.g. 5:2, preserve lean mass, whereas on standard diets (WW, mfp etc) 25% or more of weight loss will probably be muscle.
So, on 5:2 / IF you at least avoid the additional whammy from muscle loss, even though you can't avoid adaptive thermogenesis

You won't lose anywhere near 50 lb in 8 weeks, probably 15-20 lb
So, I suggest if you move to 5:2 BSD afterwards that you start with NFDs of TDEE-10%, review after 2-3 weeks and if need be tune up / down.

Hopefully, you will soon develop a feel for what to eat on NFDs, so you don't need to mfp all the time.
However, as you'll probably still have 3-4 stone to go after BSD, I recommend recalculating TDEE after each stone loss.

Well done on your FD and your exercise, round

Hello.
I did my first fast day yesterday (picked one of my long days at work when I don't ha e much time to eat) and finished on 487 calories. I'm doing LCHF on my non fasting days.
today I had scrambled egg for breakfast and some halloumi for a snack before I went to work at 12.. had my lunch at 1 (work meeting) (ham and egg salad) but by 2:30 I went all wobbly and faint feeling. So I ate a freddo (working next to the wrvs shop) and felt better about 20mins later..
has this happening to anyone else? Felt fine on the fast day but not too good the day after?
(I was low carbing for a few months prior to Xmas but went off the rails over Xmas)

BigChoc thank you again, that's a big help. When I get to 5:2 I'll make sure to calculate my TDEE to my weight that time, and - 15% if I'm having trouble losing. Much appreciated! Getting back on the horse after a temporary bread stick issue today... this thread and the other BSD one are a great support.

Minus 10% and adjust as you said above! Sorry too late in the evening for me!