5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Don't worry. Most pp do not need to worry - on health grounds - about the kind of milk or the amount of red meat they consume.

B&W Too many bloggers have a particular interest, either commercially in dairy / soya / corn / grain farming or ethically - veganism.
Unfortunately, this causes them to post only evidence they agree with and sometimes to seriously distort the weight of evidence.

Well, BC, your point about bloggers often having a certain bias is valid, but I thought that blogger I referenced was very fair in his treatment of soya. I had no idea about the effects of Roundup on GMO soy, for instance.

But you raise an interesting point about the consumption of milk or meat not being harmful. This is in direct contrast to the advice now being given by The American Dietetic Association, The American Medical Association, Harvard Med School, The National Academy of Sciences, the American Cancer Society, The American Heart Association and National Institutes of Health. They ALL now advocate a plant based diet.

Michael Greger, in his book, How Not to Die, examines the 15 leading causes of mortality in the States, and concludes that removing meat, dairy and eggs from the diet can halt, or even reverse, all of them.

Health concerns about dairy.

There’s also this from Michael Klaper

"The purpose of cow’s milk is to turn a 65-pound calf into a 700-pound cow as rapidly as possible. Cow’s milk IS baby calf growth fluid. No matter what you do to it, that is what the stuff is.
Everything in that white liquid – the hormones, the lipids, the proteins, the sodium, the growth factors like IGF-I – are all there to start that calf growing into a great big cow, or else they would not be there."
(Emphasis added.)

Hi Womble A lab can estimate "metabolic age" with more sophistication and tailored to the individual, but Boditrax gives a decent estimate for a gym machine.
So, I'd analyse carefully what it is telling you.
If you really think you are quite trim, then ask if one of the buff women trainers tried it on herself (just to make sure it hasn't got a software / measuring glitch wrt women !)

Boditrax calculates your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) which is the amount of energy (calories) your body burns at rest.
This peaks at age 16-18, then decreases prgressively with age - btw, this is why people tend to gain weight with age: they burn fewer calories, but most don't reduce calories progressively or increase exercise.

So Boditrax then assesses if your BMR is is higher (younger) or lower (older) than average for your age.
Primitive machines just calculate BMR from height & weight, but Boditrax should also use body composition, i.e. % muscle and % fat

So, higher metabolic age would mean lower % muscle and / or higher % bodyfat than average for your age.

What To Do:
Check if your waist (at narrowest point) is less than half your height.
That's a rough guide if you have high visceral fat (i.e. around organs)
Lower body fat (bum, thighs etc) is far less important for health.

To burn fat, address primarily your diet:
HIIT and lifting can also help, but diet is key
I suggest you calculate TDEE (Mosely recommends at 1 activity level lower than you think) and then mfp for a week, as a reality check. This can highlight calorie bombs or portion size challenges.
If you have too much fat around your middle, then you need to reduce intake of sugar, junk carbs, alcohol.

Lean mass:
Some women lose muscle and have high bodyfat due to longterm yo-yo dieting, often with poor nutrition, where they just fixate on scales rather than waist.
Or if you overdo cardio for months while dieting, this can cause muscle loss in some cases
To increase muscle, you need to lift weights, non-aerobically, i.e. not jumping around with light weights. Most people get enough protein, but it's worth checking you average daily at least 1g / kg bodyweight to build muscle.

You vs Your OH:
Comparing lifestyle and to his won't help much, because you would have very a different hormonal balance and body composition:
The average man has far higher testosterone & muscle mass and lower bodyfat at healthy weight than the average woman, even if they are same height, weight & age.
So, even if he is no talker than you, your OH would have a higher TDEE, i.e. be able to eat & drink more while also being able to build muscle at about twice the rate you can, even if you lift the same number of hours per week.

Boditrax should give overall % fat and % muscle, so that really helps analyse if you need to address body composition
It should also give a value for visceral fat, on a scale 1-59. If that is higher than 12, it increases risk of some serious conditions, so you need to lower it

B&W As a scientist (and an "expert" in my field), I get quite cross when other scientists let their personal ethical, religious or political beliefs determine their professional opinion.
It helps discredit experts in all fields.
The disastrous advocacy for several decades of a low fat diet was caused by such dogma.

There is no scientific consensus that veganism / low carb / anything else is healthier for everyone.
I've seen studies where vegans do best; others where low carb / paleo do.
Scientifically, that strongly suggests that the difference in outcome over the population is either small or non-existent.
I'm also sure that different diets suit different people because of individual factors: insulin resistant / sensitive, other hormonal conditions, gut bacteria & health, medications, activity levels, .....

Plant- based is quite different to exclusively plants.
I'm not aware of any of those august organisations you referenced officially saying go vegan, even if individual members may do so. Other individual members also advocate low carb or primal.
I've read on their sites "vegetarianism may be helpful" but also that fish is healthy - I've not found any of those orgs saying to stop eating fish. Or dairy yoghurt.

Michael Pollan said the famous "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.” Too much of anything is bad, whether milk, fruit, grains, alcohol ....
He says eat less meat. Not none
He also says "Don’t eat breakfast cereals that change the color of your milk.” Not - don't drink milk
http://michaelpollan.com/reviews/how-to-eat/

First fast day of the week planned today. Looking forward to it! Can't decide whether to do 2 or 3 days - ideal would be three a week in Jan but that does depend on social life a bit.

I wish taking exercise added to your fast day cals!

Will check in later - good luck any other Monday Fasters!

Good luck, FiveTwo
I may have an unplanned FD today too - I've just been for my dental checkup. Nothing done but very long & scratchy time, then that horrid AirFlow powder My gums need a TLC day after that.
Anyone else always dribble like a rabid dog at the dentist ?

Hi guys! I'm checking back in - lost 2 stone just before Easter and have maintained really well but have let the sugary snacks back in over Xmas and although my weight hasn't gone up much I am finding the FD v hard today, so here for some moral support!!

Ouch BCF hope they've calmed down (dentists can be brutal!)

Hi Persis keep drinking that water!

Welcome back after the hols, Persis and well done on maintaining since Easter
You know you can nail this FD and then you'll feel back in the fasting groove.

Hi Clear The scratchy dentist was Germanically thorough ! Every millimeter of tooth and gum wws scratched several times. Very hard. She may have been trying to find gold ? But I don't have any < wails >
Afterwards shoving in that horrid powder everywhere already sore, then a thorough whitening to finish me off.

I felt like Dustin Hoffmann in "The Boys From Brazil", the scene where dentist Laurence Olivier tortures him for information

I was able to cautiously eat - I used up energy cycling to all my errands, so when I passed a lovely little bakery that does beautiful soft choc covered donut and cheese pretzels .... My nerves needed it.
< rejoicing, 6 whole months of freedom until the next scratch around >

How are you doing with low carb, clear ? Still no cravings ?

Oh hi clear!!! Long time no see!! How's it going??

I have had to resort to a spoon of marmite. It's tough. But as soon as the kids are in bed it's soup, an egg and bed!!!

I've got proper sugar cravings too, it's like my first ever week!!

Many thanks for the advice and information BC. Very wise to suggest not comparing myself/stats to DH - he is 6'2" and naturally very slim.

Gosh, sorry choc, didn't even say hello! It's good to be back but I'm looking forward to the FD being easy again!!

Any runners out there?
I'm starting the 5:2 tomorrow and have a question about exercise...
I've done the 5:2 before and it worked well for me. However, I now enjoy running and am wondering how I combine the two.
Is it best to run on a fast or non-fast day?
Will I be OK running on my first fast day?
I run between 5-10k and always run on an empty stomach.
I have about 1 5 stone to lose.
Thanks 😊

Hhhmm chocolate doughnuts BCF nice treat!

Low carb 5:2 update BCF .... well, the very very good news is that I have low carb'd all the way through Xmas and New Year and my sole aim has been to stick with it come what may (probably the most challenging month of the year to try and start low carb, surrounded by mountains of Xmas carbs!). I definitely ate back some FD calories (nuts and smoked salmon mainly) but emerged last week weight down another lb, so low carb has helped me re-lose the bit of gain/loss/gain I've been grappling with at tail end of last year.

The monster sugar cravings have stayed away (what a relief) but I am sometimes feeling really hungry whilst feeling full at the same time. Sometimes it's hard to know what food my body needs as this WOE involves such different ammounts of fat, protein and non-starchy carbs to what I ate before. Am hoping sticking with the low carb will help me move beyond this plateau that I keep getting stuck on, time will tell over the next few weeks. Have upped my exercise recently too, which feels great

Hi persis hope marmite helps. Well, I'm a much happier, lighter, fitter, healthier person compared to a year ago but still got a way to go to my target zone.

Close that kitchen fellow Monday fasters, brush teeth and early night!

Welcome cozy not a runner here sorry but others will advise soon I'm sure welcome to our thread and good luck on your 5:2 journey

Thanks Clearskies 😊

First FD after The Great Festive Indulgence. I ate sooooo much sugar . Managed a 3 mile walk with my 21lb baby on my back and then home for a quick swing of my kettle bells. I'm really proud of myself as they've been under the stairs gathering dust for too long!

I have 3 kettle bells (8, 12 & 16 kg) and managed 15 reps of 8kg, 10 x 12 kg and 5 x 16 kg: two handed swings, single handed swings (first one side then the other) and cleans.

Can't believe it's 10:15pm and I haven't had dinner yet!

cozytoes I run on both days - about 5 times a week so often has to coincide with a fast day, and usually about 6pm on a weekday when I've had nothing all day. If I'm not bursting with energy I just slow down a bit. Weekend mornings are a bit easier generally, but I certainly don't let a FD stop me running although I hate going in the rain

Hello all [waved as she Skulls onto thread]. I have 5:2'd before with good results in 2014. However various catastrophes in life knocked me off kilter. Can't seem to get motivated to start. When I do start I abandon the FD half way through. But today is the day!!! I will stop splitting my jeans 😆. FD commenceso but I'm already starving and have been since 3 in the morning - how is it possible to wake in the night hungry when you have eaten well the day before?

I feel your pain round.
Fd#1 yesterday was pants, 800cals. Am on #2 today to make 2 minis. Not helped by an uncooperative teen, now to big to duff him up... last supper was 5 last night so lunch won't come soon enough.

Thanks not. At this present moment I would be overjoyed if I managed to stick 800 Cals (obviously aiming for the 500). I have just bought some bare naked noodles rice, I am still looking at them skeptically but we shall see.

Welcome, Round and good luck on your FD

Don't worry, NotReallyHappy Some folk do better easing in to 5:2
What has worked for some is to have 3 (usually non-consecutive) mini-FDs, i.e. below 1000 cals and then when you are used to that, gradually work on getting 2 of them lower while easing up on the 3rd

e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri below 1000 cals

NFDs : How to avoid hunger in the night / the next day
It's all about managing insulin levels to avoid spikes, so the type of food and drink
==>
Especially the NFD before an FD, try these tips after lunch for the rest of the NFD:

• Lower your GI. So, no more added sugar or junk carbs . Have your pud after lunch if you wish, then no more for that NFD . Have 1-2 proper meals after lunch, no snacks. Meals based on protein with lots of veg; keep starchy carb portions moderate. Avoid white bread. . No sweets, choc, cake, biscuits, pizza, crisps etc . No fruit juice or sugary breakfast cereal
• No more alcohol. Have a glass with lunch if you wish, but then no more.

Hi everyone, hope you don't mind me joining?

I had my first ever fd yesterday and managed 501 cals & I didn't feel hungry really which was fab, tried to reduce my tea intake too & replaced with hot nas squash which I hope is ok.

I have used mfp for years but just wondered how people following 5:2 have theirs set up? Mine is on 1200 per day.

I have a good 1 1/2 st to lose

Welcome, Cozytoes Deep snow here and still snowing, so your handle is very warming
You may find you need time to get used to training on FDs; Some folk do, some don't.

Steady state aerobic / cardio, like running or swimming, can feel very tough, because your body may find it more difficult to burn fat for fuel
What works well while fasting is to do HIIT or strength (lifting weights, or Pilates etc)

So, see how you get on, but if you find running tough then I recommend these alternatives on FDs:

• Do sprint intervals, optionally followed by a high speed run of up to 20 minutes.
• Have a cross-training day. Every runner should have at least one strength day per week, to maintain muscle.
• Training rest day. Just have a walk