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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2016 11:31

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Xmasfairy86 · 04/01/2017 19:55

Marmite!? Fab. Will give that a go. Thanks clearskies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/01/2017 22:01

WhatToChoose Try for a couple of weeks without mfp.
If you progress satisfactorily (most folk lose at least 3-4 lb in that initial period) then continue like that.
If later on the loss slows below 1lb weekly for at least 2 weeks, then I suggest you mfp for a few days reality check.

Welcome, XmasFairy Smile and good luck on your 1st FD
As pp said, glug a teasp of Marmite if you have headaches or feel lightheaded.
This replenishes lost salt & minerals and boosts B Vitamins, which often solves the problem. Another alternative is a tbsp of unsweetened soy sauce. Both are 10 cals, so no worries there.
I suggest this for mid-morning & mid-afternoon on your future FDs, to be proactive.

Most folk get used to fasting within 2-3 weeks, but don't worry in this period if you need an extra 100 cals or so - just make sure they aren't junky nibbles. A piece of hard cheese, or a boiled egg with salt is a good topup here.

OP posts:
Xmasfairy86 · 04/01/2017 22:09

Thanks bigchoc, I love cheese Grin

PorkyScratchings · 05/01/2017 14:40

Thanks for the advice BigChoc. I'll have a proper look at the Blood Sugar Diet. I'd noticed it appearing in the thread titles but a brief glance at the 800 calories every day had me running away in horror. 😆

Today is my first proper fast of the New Year. It is going well so far. I've been avoiding the scales all week but weighed this morning and I've put on 6lbs over Christmas. 😳

BigChocFrenzy · 05/01/2017 17:01

Scratchings The 5;2 BSD is much easier & more gradual - 2 x 800-cal FDs plus daily low carb, with the NFDs around TDEE, as on standard 5:2
clearskies has been doing well on 5:2 BSD, because she has insulin resistance & it stopped her carb cravings

OP posts:
FiveTwoFaster · 05/01/2017 20:18

I'm back - post Christmas hiatus -first fast day of the year today and very proteiny but went to 600 cals unfortunately. I'm glad I did it but need to get back in the Zone.

Next fast day is Monday. I lost a stone last year doing this so I know it works; I am a huge advocate of it.

Good luck any Friday Fasters.

BarnYardShenanigans · 06/01/2017 06:32

First week done. 6 lbs down. So there was quite a bit of fluid retention in there.
Just another 10 to go to get back on track.
Onwards.
The first rule of fast club: NO snacking.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/01/2017 08:54

600 is fine for your 1st FD back, FiveTwoFaster and you'll soon be right back in the fasting groove.

Well done on your SV, BarnYard
< echoes IF / 5:2 tip #1: > NO snacks or grazing

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 06/01/2017 10:19

Happy new year everyone.
Can I return to your lovely group?
Have been sticking to 14.10 for a time but new year new me needs more focus. I promised to be kinder to me.
1st fd will be Monday.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/01/2017 11:03

Welcome back, NotReally and I hope things improv, so you NC to ReallyHappyNow
Well done for keeping to 14:10 on your time away and good luck on Monday

OP posts:
Toomanywheeliebinsagain · 06/01/2017 15:35

Checking in on a FD. Not going so bad but it's so very cold I just want a hot choc

Breadandwine · 06/01/2017 16:57

Hey, new people! Nice to see you all!

Re hot chocolate - a cup of cocoa is only about 15cals. Add a splash of almond milk and it's very low cal.

I'm on a NFD today - just had said cocoa, but with a spoonful of sugar and a small splash of soya and...

Drumroll...

A piece of chocolate at 100% cocoa! Montezuma's Absolute Black, a Christmas present from DD. I love dark chocolate, but this is a step too far for me, the only way I've found to use it is to stir some in a mug of cocoa, or in a chilli. Grin

Breadandwine · 06/01/2017 16:58

Soya cream, that was - you don't need a lot.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/01/2017 17:55

On cold winter FDs, I enjoy hot Bovril, under 10 cals per cube; a savoury taste is less likely to waken appetite.
Sometimes I add a teasp of tomato puree from a tube and stir it in. Lush Smile

Some friends have been advised by their oncologist to avoid soy products.
For hot milky drinks or for porridge on an NFD, I much prefer almond milk anyway to cows milk, so few calories too - under 10 cals for a 50 ml slug of unsweetened almond milk

OP posts:
Toomanywheeliebinsagain · 06/01/2017 18:36

Almond milk is off limits sadly as I'm allergic to nuts! I might have one tomorrow though

Breadandwine · 07/01/2017 00:43

Some friends have been advised by their oncologist to avoid soy products.

Hmm... Dairy safer than soy? The dairy industry (mainly in the States, it has to be said) has a vested interest in demonising soy.

Here's Dr Greger on the subject.

And I also came across this:

foodrevolution.org/blog/the-truth-about-soy/

BigChocFrenzy · 07/01/2017 11:44

Milk alternatives: almond / cashew milk, oat milk, spelt milk ....

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/01/2017 11:48

Don't worry. Most pp do not need to worry - on health grounds - about the kind of milk or the amount of red meat they consume.

B&W Too many bloggers have a particular interest, either commercially in dairy / soya / corn / grain farming or ethically - veganism.
Unfortunately, this causes them to post only evidence they agree with and sometimes to seriously distort the weight of evidence.

An oncologist can tout any commercial or ethical interests if they blog. but when treating patients they can consider only the interests of those patients (or they get struck off & sued)

The phytoestrogens in soy can affect the levels of estrogen.
This is not usually a problem for blokes; in fact it may reduce your risk of some cancers like prostate.
However, women with estrogen-positive breast tumors or with a history / family history of them are usually advised by their oncolologist to avoid soy products

It's perfectly possible to be vegan without soy products.
I don't particularly advocate cows milk either, because research also shows galactose (milk sugar) is not advised for those at high risk of cancer.
Cheese, yoghurt and kefir are much better dairy choices and also avoid lactose intolerance

re Japan: the fermented soy products frequently consumed there may well have quite different effects on the body to the mass-produced soy products in Western supermarkets.
(In fact, lifestyle needs to be considered as a whole and Japan has much less of a snack / junk culture; employers and local government compulsorily measure waistlines Shock )

OP posts:
hollolew2 · 08/01/2017 07:24

Trudging back from Xmas for first fast day.
Managed to put on what I lost from before xmas . Thought I did ok but put on 3lbs last week when I got home from my parents and I thought I was being good !!!!! Anyway bit of a relief to be back on it gonna do 3 days this week to give it a kick start. HNY everyone let's kick some butt ( trying to be positive) GrinGrinGrin

Poppiesway · 08/01/2017 09:11

Place marking to read through.
I'm doing LCHF but wanting to do 5:2 also. Have two long days at work a week so will use those as my fast days as Sont eat properly when I'm late home in the evenings from work anyway..

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 12:17

Sounds a good plan, poppies Many low carbers find 5:2 really boosts weight loss.

Don't worry, hollolew You'll soon be back on track
Holiday gain usually includes undigested food, plus water retention from excess carbs. So you should see some loss after an FD and a couple of dumps.
Holidays are only really a problem if you delay weeks, so that bodyfat gain accumulates.

OP posts:
FitbitAddict · 08/01/2017 12:29

Hi all

I did 5:2 a couple of years ago and it's always my go-to regime of choice if the weight starts creeping back on. I'm presently about 7kg heavier than I was when my weight stablised post 5:2 so it's definitely time for action! I have my MA graduation ceremony in three weeks so even though I'll be wearing a voluminous gown I'd like to lose 2-3 kg by then and the rest can creep off gradually over the next few months.

I've been running 5 times a week since term ended on 21st Dec and I'm trying to keep that up. The Christmas break has definitely proved that hours of running is no match for eating your own bodyweight in chocolate and shortbread! Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 14:21

Welcome, Fitbit Smile and many congratulations on your MA

Yup, exercise is essential for health, but - except for elite athletes - what mostly determines your weight is what you eat & drink.
Any of us can gobble a choc muffin in 30 secs, which could be equivalent to net calories from 60 mins exercise

It's sobering to consider how many burpees (yum Smile with full pressup & jump) to burn off some common junk treats:

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 14:31

Women who genuinely have a lot of muscle would have a higher ideal weight than if they were sedentary.

However, some with BMI higher than the healthy range can seriously overestimate how much of that is due to muscle
Women who do weightlifting can gain 4-9 lb in 6 months, whereas those who only do cardio e.g. running, typically gain considerably less, if any.

OP posts:
maybeshesawomble · 08/01/2017 17:34

Hi all. Does anybody know anything about metabolic age please? We have a bodytrax machine at our gym which consistently has mine at 5 - 8 years older than my actual age (37). DH on the other hand hovers below 25 despite actually being 36... We have similar diets (mine is probably better as I drink less), and I exercise five times a week doing HIIT and strength. Any ideas what's happening? And should I be worried?

FD tomorrow and a tube strike should mean extra exercise on top of HIIT!

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