5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all and a happy new year.
I have eaten like I was posessed this Christmas and drunk more than I have done in years. I feel fat, bloated and uncomfortable and am actually looking forward to eating better and not drinking for a while.

Planning on 16/8 today to get back into the swing of things and aiming to eat nourishing, low carb foods. Planning smoked salmon frittata with lots of veggies for lunch and turkey soup for dinner. No snacking!

I have fasted on and off for the the last few months and am now within a normal BMI. However I usually gain weight over the festive period. Have a lot of family dinners, restaurant meals and birthdays as well. This time I haven't by some careful planning.

If I have eaten out, I make sure I only eat breakfast or lunch that day. I try and eat less the day after too. Just these simple things have meant I can go out and indulge and have three course dinners without gaining any weight. In fact I have even lost a little.

A lot of days I ate just two meals as opposed to three. That has made a huge difference too. It feels so good for the first time in years not to feel bloated and fat in January!

Happy New Year all
for the first time in two weeks I feel genuinely clear of the cold - apart from a bit of coughing - so had a wonderful swim in the sunshine.
Not fasting properly till the fridge clears but keeping with 1 big 1 small meal per day makes it all manageable

Happy new year everyone
I've escaped the holidays relatively unscathed, I only put on 1lb.
Im doing dry January now so expecting some good results. Got the big 40 in Feb I'd like at least half a stone off by then.

Food Unwrapped diet speacial just been on Channel 4
www.channel4.com/programmes/food-unwrapped
Covered a fair bit of IF and 16:8
but I found the Lady from Public Health England very unconvincing

Welcome GaelicGirl, Scratchings and welcome back, Barnyard
Lots of info, tips & links in the OP but post whenever you have a question, or just need psyching up.

GaelicGirl If you are BFing, you can start with 1000 FDs and come down to 700 cals when you feel ready.
The higher limit is recommended by Mosely for BFers and does help BFers who might otherwise feel ravenous.
Also, you can return to 1000 cals if you have to cope with a growth spurt and need more energy.

Well done on maintaining over the hols, LadyC, healthier
That enables you to hit the ground running (wrt weight goals) in 2017

Scratching If you are low carbing, then when you are ready you could ease into Mosely's 5:2 BSD
This is:

• daily low carb Mediteranean = lc + boost fish and also - to improve blood sugar control - beans, lentils, peas, full fat Greek yoghurt.
• with 2 x 800 cal FDs, instead of 500 FDs for the classic 5:2 (without low carb)

Healthier Two meals per NFD really suits some folk ( provided they are in reasonable health and aged 21+):

• Larger, more satisfying meals
• Longer fasting periods - useful for those who fast to help conditions like asthma
• Enables many folk to stay within TDEE without worrying about calories.

It's quite individual whether 2, 3 or even 4 meals works best.
What seems important for almost everyone is No snacking between meals, so that there are gaps between meals of 4hrs+ without any calories consumed.

hello

can i join please? After a few years of having the 'fuck it' switch firmly on i am now obese with a BMI of 31.6 i can't 'do' diets, i.e. weightwatchers / slimming world etc, i find them very patronising and give up after a little while as the constant deprivation is just too much! The idea that i can have that food tomorrow if i get through a FD is appealing, i also have high cholesterol so the health benefits are encouraging.

Wish me luck, i'm off to read the thread proper now

Welcome, choose
Yes, most of us here find it easier psychologically & more sustainable to have 500 cals on 2 "fast" days (usually non-consecutive) then relax and eat normally on the other 5 days.

The 2 weekly FDs should be free of sugary junk & booze, but our FD motto is
"I can have it tomorrow"

Fab... I'm looking forward to it!

Afternoon all.

Well DH has decided he needs to lose weight as well but he's not great at fasting. As a compromise I've agreed to follow Weight watchers with him, whilst also doing 16:8 and watching carb intake / stopping snacking etc. My eating window will be 1pm-9pm and today ive just had milk in coffee and one small bowl of homemade soup with yellow split peas. Dinner will be quorn stirfry and I've done a Group Fight class. Feeling pretty virtuous - but I'm only 2 days in!

Hope everyone else is back in the swing.

confused you probably already know, but just so you can practice your snarl at your DH :
if he is your height or more, he'll probably lose more quickly, even if he goes off plan
Very different hormonal balance and body composition - much higher muscle mass - means his TDEE is probably much higher and he can eat more while still burning fat.
Grrrrh !

Yeah, BigChoc like I need any more reasons to be peed off with him - he's 6'2" and built like the proverbial brick convenience so it'll most likely drop off him like several a stone.

Oh well. Slow and steady wins the race. Nicely full after a delicious stirfry and a small allowance for pudding remaining. Hope any Tuesday fasters are doing well.

Hello everyone and a happy new year...mind if I join in?

I started 5:2'ing in about 2013 and have done it on and off since.

A bit of background; I was 12st and got down to 11st in no time at all really, then I stalled and went to Slimming World but I wasn't in the right frame of mind for it at the time. I then juiced and lost over a stone in 3 weeks (which was so tough and despite the good results I wouldn't do it again). I then got pregnant with dd3 and I was 12st a few days after birth. I breastfed for 18 months and lost zero weight until my daughter started weaning and I jumped straight back on 5:2 and then again pretty quickly was down to about 10st 10.

I had another break from 5:2 (why did I do that?!), put a little weight back on, went back on 5:2 and lost it etc. It's now 12 months since I started 5:2'ing again and I'm not having anymore breaks!

The last time I started a fresh was 1st November and this time I also gave up sugar in the form of chocolate, biscuits and cake and was down to 10st 8 on Christmas Eve. I fasted once over Christmas and allowed myself to eat sugary stuff again and as of yesterday I am back up to 11st so a 6lbs gain

I've always exercised, less so over Christmas, I'm aiming for 3 20 minute workouts this week (I did one yesterday), and one fast on Friday, then the kids are back in school on Monday, so I'll weigh then and use t as my starting point. I'm back in work next Weds so will fast Weds and Friday.

I've also not had chocolatey crap since New Year's Eve and plan on staying off it again as it reduces my appetite more than fasting does! Seriously I lost a lot of interest in food when I'm not eating so much sugar. I stick to 3 decent meals a day, 3 coffees, lots of water. When fasting I have one evening meal.

Anyway, those who managed it...thanks for reading to the end

I plan on using this thread to check in and be accountable!

I look forward to speaking with everyone.

I'm 5'6 or 5'7 by the way and my goal is 10st.

Welcome HappyFeet and good luck
Your plan sounds sensible - regular exercise and cutting sugar
This time, once you teach goal, I recommend a definite maintenance plan - most people find otherwise that they drift back to their old WOE and hence old weight & waist.

Thanks bigchoc I will gradually reduce fasts as opposed to just stopping them, I really think I can do it now that I'm cutting the sugar out as that's where 30-40% of my calories came from I reckon

Hello happyfeet. We are the same height, weight and have the same goal weight!

Starting a new job today (sitting killing time in a coffee shop opposite my new office!). I'm hoping a change of scene will Jerome on track. My last job was very stressful. Nasty boss. This led to comfort eating, not taking time out for the gym and if I'm honest too much wine. Today I become the boss so I will hopefully give myself some flexibility

Morning everyone, so first nfd yesterday and I did pretty well, ended up with 400 odd calories left over by end of dinner and didn't feel the need to eat them for the sake of eating them iyswim? But my question is do I just forget about these now or keep them as extra for a treat over the weekend? What's the rules thanks

Good luck womble

Good luck on your new job, Womble and well done for managing to leave the toxic one.

Well done WhatTo choose When not hungry, no need to eat. A useful habit to acquire.
You may find you are hungrier on another NFD, say directly after an FD, so it evens out. If not, those cals allow a bit extra at the weekend if you prefer.

Some folk find fasting naturally reduces appetite, either because fasting corrects some insulin metabolism issues or because they are burning plenty of fat for fuel.
If you find this, it's fine to keep eating below TDEE on NFDs, but don't deliberately so if you feel hungry - the FDs are the intended "diet days"; you should feel comfortably satisfied on NFDs.
Also, although mfp is useful if you suspect your "normal eating" averages well above TDEE, many folk lose on 5:2 without needing to cal count on NFDs.

Thank you big choc at the minute I'm logging lots but maybe I should just relax and see how it goes for a couple of weeks not doing mfp?

Hi!

Can I join!?

Weight piling on over the festive period 2 years worth!!!

Started today with a fast day and have awful light headedness now. Is this normal????

Thanks for the good wishes! It went well and I managed an hour's walk at lunchtime.

NFD today but ate well and DH is currently cooking up a veg curry. FD tomorrow and a fasted spin class to look forward to!

whattochoose, I don't log NFDs and have successfully lost 1.5 stone on 5:2 in the past, gaining about 0.5 back following a running injury and falling off the 5:2 wagon when marathon training. I find logging makes me obsess about what I'm eating that day. If I follow my hunger I find I eat a reasonable amount and make better choices as I crave what my body needs.

Hi Xmas and welcome - usual advice for lightheadedness is a teaspoon of marmite and lots of water. Works for me. Hope it passed