5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Big Choc thank you so much. That is really helpful.
I think we have a plan!
DD's TDEE is 1750...... so she is planning
Mon, Wed & Fri 1000 calories (as you suggested)
Tues & Thurs 1500 calories
Sat & Sun 1750 calories. This should give her a weekly deficit of 2,750 calories
She is taking a set of kitchen scales back with her and the MFP ap on her phone (so she can be honest about portion sizes).
We are going to practise with recipes (just had a 2 egg omelette with 3/4 oz cheese and 1/2 small tin of beans!). She has planned her evening meal (turkey breast, med jacket potato, broccoli, sweetcorn plus sm amount of gravy) and reckons she can have a small portion of trifle and stay below her 1500 calories for today.
She is going to use her migraine as an excuse to refuse alcohol and chocolate. Being Gluten Free means she already avoids cakes and biscuits.
She is wary of the gym - her physio has already talked to her about the benefits of building muscle...... but I think that is 1 step too far at the moment. She intends to swim and sign up for yoga.
We will look at your "good foods" list in more detail. Breakfasts are usually the problem - she is planning GF weetabix + dried fruit / banana + yoghurt + GF granola / GF cornflakes / porridge oats + tsp jam / GF hot cross bun / GF muffin.....does that look OK? Breakfast and lunch need to be simple ...she has more time to cook in the evenings.
Thank you so much for your help.

Samandcj That overall plan should enable gradual weight loss and sounds sensible & low stress for your DD.

Comments:

1. Breakfast - avoid a sugary / high GI start to the day. Savoury is better. So she stays satisfied until lunch and doesn't get tempted to snack, or dive into a massive lunch. High sugar: Jam, dried fruit, raisins, hotcross bun, muffins Avoid Granola, cornflakes, cereal bars etc - all just disguised sugar.

Quick Suggestions:

• Eggs are ideal, e.g. scrambled with cheese or as veg omelette with GF toast. If she is pushed for time, then boil eggs the evening before.

• 2 slices toast with Bacon & tomatoes / Smoked salmon, lemon, Philly cheese / tinned sardine, lemon & horseradish / cheese, tomato & pickles / hummus & bell pepper strips....

• Oat bran or steelcut oats can be microwaved (but don't use instant powder ) with cinammon to sweeten, also low-sugar fruit like berries / apple / pear, plus flaked almonds

• Plain full fat Greek yoghurt with low-sugar fruit, cinammon, almond flakes. Avoid low fat or flavoured yoghurt.

• Pnut butter on toast, optionally with banana & cinammon.
  I mention cinammon often as a sweetener, because it can help slightly to stabilise blood sugar.

  2. Wary of the gym ? Can you sort out the problem there - especially now you say that her physio also recommended building muscle.

Lifting weights would improve her strength, physical resilience, coordination, mobility, confidence and probably health - did you know that a good % of muscle is an important indicator of health ?

Pilates would also increase core strength & flexibility, probably with some bodyweight strength training,so I'd recommend this rather than yoga (some yoga classes are good, but others just bring flexibility and psychological benefit, not muscle)

Also, she is at the ideal age for building bone density for the future, which requires weight-bearing exercise like lifting (also walking / jogging) plus calcium-rich foods.

OK ...so more protein is needed. Philly, Humous, Peanut butter - all can be made into quick breakfast. Oatcakes & cheese, greek yoghurt & banana.....yup - she likes that - thanks for the ideas.
She likes eggs, salmon, tuna, beans , cheese....so good ideas for lunch with rice / baked potato. she doesn't eat much bread as GF bread isn't wonderful, but toasted bagel with philly / salmon would be good
Evening meals are easier as she has more time.
This has been so helpful - thank you.
She is going to our local gym with her sister but tells me that the uni gym is membership only ....and doesn't think she will get her money's worth!
She goes back to uni next week - fingers crossed she keeps the healthy eating going.

Good evening and happy Christmas, fellow fasters

I managed to put on a load (2kg!) of weight in a very short amount of time so back to fasting today in the hope of turning things around a bit.

I've mostly managed, although it's been a bit more challenging with OH around. He said I should just each less each day, but if it was that easy I wouldn't have been overweight nearly all my adult life

The kitchen is officially closed but I did come to bed with a little bowl of sprouts fried in a little toasted sesame oil which I've been eating with a cocktail stick.

Haven't returned to exercise yet (apart from rollerblading around the park this morning), but plan to very soon.

How is everyone else faring?

Happy Christmas, EagleRay and well done on your FD.
If that 2 kg was just over a couple of weeks and you have been eating a lot of carby food, then some of it may be retained water. If so, the FD should release it and the scales should show this the morning after.

Your OH seems to have little insight into weight management.
Many folk who genuinely try eating "a little less" per day find it doesn't work, because of homeostasis: their body compensates by slightly turning down metabolic rate - unfortunately homeostasis rarely works the other way, if you eat a little bit more each day.

Most women need a 4-500 daily deficit (below TDEE) to lose on a standard diet and Dr Michelle Harvie's 5:2 book mentions research showing that many overweight women need on average an 830 daily deficit on daily CR.
5:2 seems better able to force the body into fat-burning, as well as being easier psychologically than dieting every day.

Calculate your TDEE-500 and ask your OH if he could manage that for months

eagleray
my DH is a big bloke - 6 foot, huge shoulders, rugby player build.
He loves his 600 calorie days (and has done for well over 4 years)
on the basis that the fasting is good for his blood chemistry and
reduces his chances of stroke (which killed his mum)
and cancer (which killed his dad)
and dementia (which scares the shit out of both of us)
5:2 is not just about weight loss, its about long term health.
That might get him with the plan ....

I seemed to gain the extra 2kg over about 5 days

But today at least a kilo is gone!

DP is a research scientist and perfectly capable of reading up on it, and perfectly capable of understanding how to maintain a healthy lifestyle of his own, but fails miserably on both counts. He gets away with a lot food-wise because of the amount of exercise he does, but of course that's not necessarily being healthy. I just ignore, ignore, ignore and do my own thing.

I'm about to order some jeans in the sale (£60 off) and am sizing down

Eagle
2 kg in 5 days is undigested food
And yes, your DH has to decide for himself .... I waited 10 years for mine to see the light

If your OH might sometime be interested, no need to hunt for research into IF / 5:2

• plenty of peer-reviewed science refs at the end of the OP under "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health"

Hello everyone. Been lurking for a while in preparation for tentatively returning to 5:2 after a crazy year. I've managed to keep most of the weight off but half a stone has gone on for sure.
I'm thinking I may start on 3 x 1000cal days first, to gradually ease myself back in. There's still loads of cheese and chocs in the house, but I'm quite capable of having just a small amount so they could last til Easter although not if DH gets his mitts on them.

Good to see loads of new people doing so well in 5:2, plus some familiar names - and Maz, who I remember going off after she discovered she was pg! Congratulations on your baby!

Hi all, weight in today post Christmas and TOM and was only 2lbs up. Frankly a small miracle given I have done nothing but eat! Doing a gentle fast day today - aiming for about 650 cals - planning some brutal ones in NY. Would quite like to be at complete target weight by my Dad's 70th in March and that means dropping another half a stone. Would take me to about 10s,8 lbs which at 6ft is pretty much ideal

Welcome back, everyone Nice to see old friends joining us again

If anyone needs a casual nudge towards healthier habits in 2017, you could try this nhs quiz to review your lifestyle:
https://www.nhs.uk/oneyou/how-are-you/welcome

(If anyone is sensitive, it didn't ask my weight or waist, but I don't know what it asks or recommends if you get below a 10 score)

I'm glad I'm not the only returner! Good to see you Lady.

I'm off for a dog walk soon. Just one DDog left, girl was PTS in March after a charmed life and very short and merciful (1day!) illness. Boy DDog will be 15 in 2017 but is very sprightly so we go at a good lick. Then a bit of harder exercise, some form of kick boxing class courtesy of Beachbody Online. Gym closed til Tuesday now 😲

Is anyone fasting today? I don't plan on going out tonight (I hate NYE) so I'm contemplating a 1000cal day.

FD for me today [contrary face]
Just leaving for a 90 mins NYE spin class

FD here. Low carb going well, proud to have stuck with it surrounded by mountains of Xmas food.

Hapy New Year everyone!

Very well done, Clear That's a real achievement sticking to your WOE over the Xmas-NY hols.
Normally you would probably have added several extra lb; instead, you are on track and you'll hit 2017 already running.

After NYE spin special, the trainer gave us each a little 0.2 l bottle of fizzy wine and took photos. He was dressed (upper half) as a 1960s rockstar, with long blond wig did look silly but great fun.
It's my FD, but I can't pretend to be really iron-willed resisting that because alcohol has never been very interesting for me - I'll probably just cook a steak in it sometime < barbarian >

A choc donut would have been tempting, but I'd just have saved it for tomorrow.
NYD will be indulgent, starting with a bacon sarnie breakfast and with choc donuts as pud after lunch. Maybe pressups as evening entertainment, since I'll be well fuelled.

Enjoy the celebrations everyone !

Happy New Year to everyone - here's to another successful year intermittent fasting!

I went to the doc yesterday and was given two weeks anti-biotics!

I feel OKish, and I'll just take it easy for a while (still made pizza for tea, so I can't be too bad!)

Hope everyone else is fine - and staying 'in the zone' over the NY celebrations!

Ps. Anyone doing #Veganuary this year?

Happy New Year IF/5:2ers !

My FD went well for NYE, 650 cals. However, I was ready for bed at 11:30 pm, but the fireworks kept me up until 2 pm < props open eyelids with matchsticks >

Enjoying my last day before work tomorrow; the holiday week whizzed by
I'm just about to stick a flammkuchen in the oven (I'm in Germany) - the traditional bacon, sour cream etc on a paper thin base and late lunch will be Surf & Turf

Oh poor you, B&W I hope the ABs do the trick asap
To help your immune system, try to cut right down on sugary treats and alcohol.
Also, have a complete break from training, just short walks outside if you feel restless. Don't worry, you won't lose muscle during a couple of weeks rest.

Happy New Year all. Jumping back in having had such great support from the regular posters when I did 5:2 throughout 2015. I stopped last year as found it incompatible with marathon training (I know it's fine for some but didn't work for me). I'm now back to HIIT, Bikram and weights and have been on 5:2 WOE for a couple of months. Took a fortnight off for Christmas and first FD of 2017 tomorrow.

Your post on your DH is very timely TIP. DH also followed 5:2 the year before last but is less keen now as significantly upped his training (predominantly strength and HIIT). He needs a reminder of the fact that it's not just about weight loss and is compatible with his exercise regime!

Morning all
First day back at work, so I've just drawn back the curtains and .... it's snowing heavily, lots already on the ground
It's a training restday, so I've time to walk in instead of cycling. Just 4 km each way and I'll only take my light rucksac.

I hope everyone else is having a better return to the coalface
Good luck to the Monday fasters, especially to any newbies starting today

Hi all.
No idea what my name was last time I was here. Something Barn related.
I'd managed to maintain for a year and even drop another kilo up until oct 2016.
Around 25 lbs in total. I've prob put 15 back on in less than 3 months. I'm hoping 5 of that will go ASAP.
My mother came to visit and all my old bad habits of post dinner snacking bingeing came flooding back. Followed shortly thereafter by a 2 week work trip, an unexpected luxury holiday, and of course the Xmas holidays. So I've also been away from my routine for quite a while.
Oh yes, and my in laws are living with us for several months.
However, I've just been using them as an excuse as they are happy to eat healthy food.
First fast day of the year was today and kitchen is closed (CLOSED!!! Dammit). Came in at around 600 cals for the day and the dinner was so yummy (small bit of grilled marinated chicken, and a platefull of roasted peppers, shrooms, courgette, toms) we're having it again tomorrow but with a little rice and some sweet corn.
Feeling really happy being sober and not bloated for the first time in about 6 weeks, and proper fasting for the first time in several months.

Hello everyone! Happy new year!

This is my first time really trying 5:2 although it's something I've wanted to do for ages. I feel like my head is in a good place to use fast days as a prompt for good habits rather than fixating on weight loss, I'm not weighing at all.

I'm currently BF my 9 month old chunk of a DD but my appetite is finally getting back to normal so hoping I won't have too much hunger to deal with at the start. Plan on lunch of veg/lentil soup and then dinner of meat and veg/salad & yoghurt for fast days. Day 1 so far is going well (at 10am )

This thread is great, so much support.