5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I lost 1.3 pounds this week on the new mini FD system as suggested by BigChoc thank you

My calorie intake on the 3 days stayed between 600-700 calories

Have a great weekend everybody

Morning all
I have had to suspend my fasting because I feel so grim at the moment, but frustrating but I suppose it is right to listen to my body. I have no energy at all.

Hoping to be back on board next week and trying to limit the damage in the meantime

Nearly sorry to hear you are not feeling well. I took a break for a couple of weeks and just restarted last week. You will be fine as long as keep to your TDEE until you feel better

Congrats on your SV, Daisies
I hope you feel better soon, Nearly40 Lots of bugs around that your body could be fighting off.
Aim for plenty of sleep and "healthy maintenance":
Nutritious meals 3-4 times per day, no snacks between. Also avoid booze or sweet junk, because they both increase fat storage around your middle.

Happy to report I am back on track after a month of yoyoing.

After my weds fast I have tried to be really good and eliminate the junk.

Thursday I ended up doing a job for someone so as a Thankyou they wanted to feed me pizza as I knew about it before hand I was very careful in the day and I must out weighed the bad as I woke up on the Friday loosing more.

Friday I made a huge chicken and veg strew with a few chunks of potatoes and woke up Saturday lighter again.

And yesterday I was offered a slice of homemade cake so I had just a small peice and cut back on my dinner by making a Thai chicken curry with paste, almond milk veg and made it with no carb soya rice to make allowance for the cake and ice lost again this morning.

Just 2.6lbs away from target and I'm on a FD today.

Since dropping the rubbish I feel great so I've re educated myself again that 1 treat doesn't have to make you put on if I pull it back.

Good luck to all
The fasters today.

Hi just checking back in, doing my second FD today. Teenagers both out all day so I can quietly avoid the kitchen, then doing a roast chicken for tea so I can just have a few lean slices of breast meat and some green veg. Might be an early tea if I'm gnawing my own limbs by 4 o'clock! I have an emergency hard boiled egg in the fridge for when I need something to get me through.

Can I ask at what point people felt they were ok enough to do exercise on a FD? I'm taking it easy for these first couple, I have to walk the dogs but will do that in a minute while I'm still not too hungry. I usually run on a Sunday but thought I'd better not while my body's getting used to fasting.

Scales looking encouraging and feeling so much less bloated. I've been doing MFP for my NFDs and have stuck to it fairly easily - even managed to allow for a glass of wine last night! But it's early days and I have a long way to go, so will not get too smug yet!

Good luck all today.

Fast day here. Medium hard boiled egg with salad for lunch. Peppermint tea and lemon and ginger. Black coffee first thing. Did body pump on Thurs for first time in ages. Still feeling it! Though was worse yesterday. Did long (54mile) hilly bike ride yesterday. Wondered if that would make fasting today too hard, but seem to be doing ok - so far!!!

Sunday FD here, I haven't had anything yet but I am not hungry! The only drawback is how very cold I am feeling... Hope everyone else is having a good weekend.

CQ Steady state cardio like running & swimming may make you feel hungrier on FDs.
You should be ok with HIIT or lifting weights.
Keep it to max 1 hr to start.

Well done, Stripey If you keep treats to one portion max per NFD and adjust the rest of the day like you have been doing, then you have a system to maintain at goal longterm.

Oh dear - it feels like I'm losing the battle of the holiday weight gain

It's day 8 of 12 and have done 2 FDs of sorts - compliant until late eve then gone astray with desserts and wine. On top of that, I've had a couple of days of not eating until early pm, on the basis that if I've eaten a lot the night before, there's no point in eating again until I'm properly hungry. Have also completed w1 of C25K.

And yet, I feel bloated and imagining a 2kg gain.

2 options this morning - work off my mild hangover by eating fried eggs on toast, or go out for a run of sorts and eat at lunchtime... Our holiday home is in a picturesque hill town built entirely of cobbles, steps and succulents in pots so a bit of a challenge

CQ I am a (proud) cyclist to work and it did take me a couple of weeks to be physically OK with cycling in on FDs and then not eating breakfast. I started off by switching to eating an egg or two, less carbs and more protein, once I got off the bike and then changed to just delaying the food until lunchtime. I did get very wobbly again last night though having fasted most of the day and cycled a total of 20km with pretty flat tyres. For me it is a process. I just teach my body to get used to it. I also do short runs (5k or so) fasted. BigChoc if this is sounding stupid, please let me know!

Eagle how about 2 boiled eggs with 1 toast soldiers then a run? Or poached or scrambled?

SV day, I'm finally outta the 9st category and weighed in this morn after my FD at 8st13.8 just 1lbs away from a 3 stone loss.

I'm honestly amazed I didn't think I had it in me as I've never managed under 9st 7 and that was back in 2011 when I was starving myself on the Cambridge diet and I weighed that for all of one day before piling it back on.

Can I say how much I love the 5:2, before starting this my target was 9st 7 as I just didn't think I could go any lower but this has proved me wrong.

Hurray Stripey! Three stone is a huge achievement :)

Well done Stripey what a result

I on the other hand have not had a good result this week and actually managed to put on a lb, scales read 10st 8lb this morning . So feeling a bit fed up atm.

Clearly I do need to watch what I eat and probably more importantly drink on all NFDs. So will give myself a kick up the bum and re-focus and hopefully have a better result next week.

Congrats on your SV and cracking the 9 stone milestone, Stripey

Cecile People can build up their capability to exercise fasted - I can now do 1hr HIIT spin plus 1 hr heavy lifting, but that took me a couple of years to achieve without loss of performance.
Some find it best to keep FDs as their training restdays.
YMMV

Short running sessions, like 5k, should be fine for most folk on FDs.
FDs are a good time to add sprint intervals, to build up fitness and top speed.
Best to keep cardio sessions under 1hr total.
Vevry long sessions - like your bike ride - may make you feel drained on the FD, or the day after. You may also find performance suffers.

btw, a really hard 90 minute run lowers your immune system for up to 3 days. Avoid unless you are 100% well.
Any half-marathon or longer needs 2 weeks recovery, also to repair minor tears in heart muscle fibres that often occur during such events.
Elite runners have to have elite immune & recovery systems. Most people don't.

I strongly recommend you add resistance training on FDs or NFDs, to make sure you retain muscle or even build it up, while burning fat.
This is important on any weight loss WOE.
In contrast, long cardio sessions may cause loss of muscle and also lower metabolic rate - they also often increase appetite, by more than the extra burned.
So, maybe drop a cardio day for strength training.

Many folk find they need to monitor NFDs at first, Silver
It's easy to unconsciously eat back the FD deficit, if you eat to appetite and if you've been overeating for hears.

What helps NFDs:

• Eating only meals and cutting out snacks between
• Keeping to nhs alcohol guidelines and also only drinking with a meal, not with nibbles or on its own.
• Keep junky meals like pizza, takeaway, pies & chips to once every week or two.
• mfp for a week, to check where the calories are going - booze / hidden calorie bombs / too many "treats" / snacks / portion size

Maybe have an evening run, Eagle
Maintaining on holiday would be great, but the main thing is to get right back in routine the day after you return.

Thanks for the advice, BigChoc, that is really helpful. I can happily report that I don't have the patience for more than half an hour of cardio, I have the attention span of a gnat and my 20km bike ride is 10k/half an hour each way.
I know I need to increase my strength training, but already do some informal press ups and other body weight exercises as I go about my business, I'm trying to get more formal sessions with actual weights into my routine too.
I actually find the weakness after a strength training session much harder to deal with mentally than the hunger after a run, though - slightly worrying to hear that my inclinations might not be doing me much good...
Thanks for giving me something to think about :)
Good luck all Monday fasters!

Well done stripey you have done amazingly well

I am hoping to crack the 9 stone barrier myself soon

Well done Stripey! That's an incredible achievement, especially as you've managed to go lower than your target. My very long term target is about 10st, but if I could get under that I would be utterly delighted.

So I did my run. Timings are tricky as it depends on DP being ok with being left with the kids and evenings are pretty hellish. I did my warm up and down going up and down over steep cobbled steps and found a fairly flat road on the edge of town for the main running part. Managed a peak of 174bpm so think I've had my workout for today.

I know it's not most people's idea of a holiday but it's a real novelty being able to just go and run as at home DP is mostly working away. I will find a way of co running though, so that by early Dec I'll be able to run 5k without any problems

Cecile Your system sounds fine.
I suggest you try shorter sessions for strength training, but on more days.
Say a 15-20 minute session one day and on a couple of other days do Mosely's 4-minute Fat Blast using pressups or deep bodyweight squats.

It's never too late to get strong and quick:
B&W (age 79) built up to 1200 pressups from zero within about 2 years.
Women can also build up strength - I did 800 and I'm 60 years old
Several folk here are achieving walking or running PBs while on 5;2

Excellent stripey what an achievement, you must feel great?

My first blip yesterday since starting this. An unexpected get together with an old friend who was in town for the night. Went completely over the top with the booze, toted up the calories for yesterday and it came in at around 2,500 😣. Feel terrible today so my Monday FD has been postponed. Bad timing as i'm off to the Dr in a couple of hours for my first weigh in. Anyway, whatever the scales say it doesn't really matter as I can see a big difference between how I look today and how I looked 4 weeks ago. Will report back later.

Just popping in for some support. First fast day going well so far. I've been keeping busy at work but I'm just off to pick up the children from school and that means snack time I need to stay strong for another couple of hours.

Wish me luck

Good start, MyMother Stay focused and do your best.

Crepe That's perfectly ok for a weekend celebration; you need that sometimes and it's fine.
I'm very impressed it was only 2500 - some folk can add several thou cals over a weekend and they struggle to progress if they do that too often.