5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all
Start of week 3 for me. Jumped on the scales this morning 10st 8.6lb, so only 0.2lb off this week. I'm a bit disappointed with that as I had hoped for at least a whole lb and that's despite doing 3 spin classes, 2 pump class and a HIIT class and a fair bit of walking. Not sure why as I had two successful fast days and was quite careful for the other days.

However overall it's still just over 3lb off in two weeks, so I must focus on that victory.

Anyway fast day for me again today, it's going to be lots of hot drinks as it's turned quite autumnal here and I always seems to get cold on fast days even when it's warm. I will repeat the mantra 'I will not give up' as I drink myself through the day.

Good luck to anyone fasting today

Checking in at the beginning of a fast day here. Should be plenty to do to keep myself busy with the DC.

I'll be drinking plenty of hot drinks too, silver. Don't be discouraged by the "only" 0.2lb. It is all very much in the right direction and I find that when I change my exercise routine, my muscles must hold on to water or something as weight loss levels off and then drops off all at once.

BCF, I also love massive salads. Lots of salad leaves, lots of crunchy cucumber and celery, tomatoes and grapes to add sweetness and colour, chicken or tuna, then a tsp of extra virgin olive oil (helps absorb the fat soluble vitamins too) and a tsp of vinegar. My children often try to snaffle some of it!

Morning all

Darcy reporting for duty!

A good weekend was had - Saturday we sorted through all clothes and have a massive pile of 'too small' for the DC and 'too big' from me I've discovered I need to go shopping againg though.. only got 2 pairs of warm jeans / trousers to get me through winter! School run was done in 3/4 thin trousers today - 6 degrees !

We had our roast Saturday in the end as the DC were tired and wanted to chill. Still managed a little walk and my steps

Sunday was standing in a field watching DS rugby , then we went for a long walk at a local national trust place for 2.5 hrs - made it to 12,000 steps yesterday!

Am pleased with my weekend eating and drinking wise - continuing this week to just focus on nailing NFDs, particularly as TOTM has appeared - and the first big one since I can remember (implant, rarely have them at all - and when I do extremely light)... next week I'm planning to be on the case with the NFDs and get back to fasting too

Start of week 3 for me also silver. I'm not weighing in for another couple of weeks as I find it weakens my resolve if I haven't lost as much as I think I 'should have'. I do feel a bit trimmer and the tape measure is agreeing with me though strangely barely anything from my waist and quite a lot off hips, bumand thighs (not complaining especially as this my least liked area of the body when overweight).

I'm feeling very positive now that I have 2 weeks under my belt and ready for the next 2 weeks. I tried one of those Option drinks today (salted caramel) it was ok but I can completely taste the artificial sweener which isn't pleasant. Are any of the other flavours nicer or is there an alternative that's similar but doesn't taste like a dump liad of bad chemicals in my mouth?

Sounds like you're both back on track, Clear, MrD
Motivating - but expensive ! - wardrobe NSV, MrD Many folk just buy cheap & cheerful / charity shop clothes when they've more to lose.

To prepare yourself psychologically: it's quite usual to retain a few lb water during totm, but that should all be gone, plus another 1lb or so, the morning after your 1st (sometimes 2nd) FD post-totm.

< waves to fellow salad fan Countess >

Many folk lose in fits & starts, Silver Probably because the classic 1lb fat loss is sometimes hidden under weight variations due to varying speed of digestion, retained water, hormonal swings, totm etc
It's best to look at the trend over 3+ weeks, to smooth out temporary blips

Well done on your inches NSV, Crepe It's partly genetic where you first lose or store bodyfat

I know some folk like the choc or mint choc Options, but like you, I can always taste the glucosey gloop that sweetens it.
I prefer Rooibos tea, which is naturally sweet, or herbal tea - ginger / mint / aniseed & fenchel - with stevia.

First Fd fail for me today. I don't know why really; just got to lunch time and didn't feel 'strong' enough to continue. Kicking myself now, obviously.

I only had 950 calories so would appreciate advice on how to proceed? Try again tomorrow or go for a week of 1000 calories....or eat fully tomorrow And try again on Wednesday?

Grrr!

be kind to yourself Dakota 950 is still a decent deficit - a mini FD- if I were you I'd have a healthy NFD today and retry FD after that.

Sounds like NFDs going well MRD well done and how lovely to be throwing out more clothes!

Successful FD yesterday, focussing on next 2 NFDs is the priority now.

Have a good day fasters and non-fasters!

It all adds up silver
tape measure celebrations crepe!

I had a 420 cal fast day yesterday. I seem to be losing 1.5 lbs a week. However, as I'm 5"1.5, I'm having to reduce calories on nfds to lose weight too. My week looks like this: 2 days at 500 calls, 3 days at 800 calls, 2 days at 1200 - 1500 cals. I've lost 21 lbs and am now 5lbs away from my target of 9 and a half stone. I was a bit worried that perhaps this was too low, but when I did the online calculations about weekly calories needed to lose weight at my height/weight, it's right.

Is anyone else 5"2 and under doing 5:2? I'd be interested to hear different approaches to weight loss on non fast days as I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed at the thought that this will need to be my eating plan for the rest of my life (v dramatic I know!) I think I'm finally having the realisation that at my height I will always need to eat less than I'd like, and less than I'm used to. To have an Indian takeaway for example, would need to be counterbalanced that day/the next day with significantly fewer calories. It's definitely a real wake up call as somehow I'd felt that by having what I'd thought was a pretty healthy diet; lots of veg, olive oil, avocados (but was probably calorific) etc meant that I could eat cake/crisps/red wine too. But seeing the calories my height would need to consume in order to put on a lb a week was a bit of a reality check moment - it's not a lot! I'm slowly making peace with it, as it feels good to be able to fit into my clothes, have more energy and not be so down in myself. I'm giving thought to what I decide to eat - if the cake looks mediocre, it's just not worth it! And more importantly, i want to make this sustainable for the physical health benefits.

That was long, but it feels good to have a place to articulate these feelings and share the weight losses and non scale victories and to hear about other experiences. Good luck to those who are fasting today.

Dakota We don't have "failed" FDs, just "postponed"
Occasionally we all find we're just not in the rightmood: not enough sleep, junky / boozy evening before, worries about something.

Ideally keep today around a mini-FD (1000 cals) If not possible, the n make it a healthy NFD within TDEE - i.e. plenty of veg, no junk, no booze.

I suggest you don't try to squeeze in another mini or FD, but just nail your next scheduled FD.

Congrats on your SV, Onwego
That's a quick rate of loss when you are so near goal and also short - you are right: the lower TDEE at your height makes weight management much tougher, when most portion sizes seem designed for 6'3" blokes doing heavy manual work.

Congrats also on your insight into what you can eat at your height:
many folk think they can eat as much as they want of healthy food, but that's probably only the case for tall blokes. Even without any junk food, you still need to be mindful
Also, junk food is usually a calorie bomb and also starts cravings, so it makes it more difficult to keep within TDEE.

What I recommend:
Keep carby crap - choc, cake, biscuits, crisps etc - as a really occasional treat, not daily or even weekly.
Stay within nhs guidelines always, daily and weekly limits. So just have one glass, not a few. Also avoid mixers with it.
Then your appetite is likely to adjust and cravings reduce

Maintenance
Those with low TDEE who maintain successfully nearly all seem to stay on 5:2
They eat back the FD deficit, I.e. they eat a bit more on the NFDs - this is how you can work in a Saturday takeaway and a glass of wine, plus a glass on the other NFDs if you wish

Also in maintenance 5:2, you can consider if you want to use some of the FD deficit to have swet munk like cake, but be careful of cravings.

"swet munk" ="sweet junk" !

More Science
I've been reading "The Obesity Code" By Dr Jason Fung.
The best book I've read so far about longterm weight management
He has been treating patients who have suffererd kidney damage from T2 - so he has results on real people, not theory. He is becoming well known in the medical community in this field.

He confirmed scientifically what I had deduced after reading many scientific papers about
fasting, longterm weight management & health:

• A major reason why people keep regaining after loss is NOT poor willpower.
  It is because the body keeps trying to return to its weight set point - homeostasis - and to do this it both increases appetite and reduces metabolic rate.

• Also, the longer you have been overweight, the more difficult it is to lose and maintain your loss

• Keeping added sugar and junk carbs to only occasional treats is important

• Fasting is how to increase the set point, i.e. to maintain or increase TDEE while losing weight and afterwards

btw, This is why I keep reminding everyone that a temporary "diet" is pointless and that they need a lifelong maintenance plan:
Almost everyone who has been overweight more than a few months needs to permanently change their WOL and preferably keep some form of fasting, whether daily 16:8 or 5:2

First FD of the week here, had an ok weekend stayed within maintenance TDEE for the whole weekend (and no alcohol) good bit of exercise, walking all over the place. Really thinking about the maintenance plan now because this is where i always fall down and weight goes back up so thanks for the above information Bigchoc. Good luck Tuesday fastest

V interesting re the science bigchoc. I found in the years before having children that my body kept finding its way to 11st 5lb - was always impressed at how specific my body was about getting to a certain weight. Now of course I dream of being this weight, but once I reach it this time I will then move on to next goal.

I was reading something recently about the progress of participants on the Worlds Biggest Losers and their tendency to regain afterwards. Someone looked into it and found they needed fewer calories than same size person who hadn't previously been obese, so basically much harder to maintain weight than the textbooks suggested

Thank you bigchoc for the information and your kind words of support - they're very much appreciated. The info you referred to is more evidence I need to adopt this as a permanent lifestyle change. It's something I have to be conscious of yet find a way of normalising it into my life.

That ^ is exactly what I think too Onwego, this has to be a life style for me now, I really don't want to be dieting for the rest of my life. Well that's FD 1 done (came in at around 530 calls) kitchen closed now until tomorrow - hope everyone else had a good fast day back for more on Thursday

Hi folks. Haven't been on here for a while.

Really struggling with fasting after the birth of baby Frazzle.

He's 6 months and not sleeping through. I know this is normal, but it's driving me round the twist and I'm living on wine, Diet Coke and biscuits!

Managed a successful FD today though! I've been SOOOO hungry but haven't eaten a thing so far. I've a pot of chicken, chorizo, sweet potato & lentil casserole on the hob and I'm about to devour it!

Looking forward to getting to know all the newbies and catching up with all of the old timers!

Halloween, I'll join you on Thursday for a fast day too. Frazzle, I'm in awe of you not eating until now with a 6 month old. Sleep deprivation is so tough on the spirit!

Well done on your FD, Frazzle and greetings to BabyFrazzle
< croaks lullaby, BabyFrazzle shrieks in horror .. >

EagleRay That phenomenon is scientifically proven, e.g. Int J Obesity and is called "adaptive thermogenesis" - I've mentioned it here a few times too:

Someone who loses a significant amount of weight (30 lb +) can often have a TDEE lower than someone naturally that weight. This effect can last for a year, or for much longer.
It is reduced, but not eliminated, if lean mass has been retained.
It is less likely to happen if the person has not been overweight for long.

It seems likely that adaptive thermogenesis is caused by the homeostasis or set point effect, as the body dials back metabolism to reach its former high, if that high weight lasted a long time.
So, according to Dr Fung and others, continuing with intermittent fasting for maintenance is the best way to avoid this, maximise TDEE for the lower weight and maintain goal.

I know onwego. This WOL was very successful for me before, but whenever anyone popped on to the thread with a baby I'd think 'For heaven's sake, give yourself a break! Wait until they're sleeping through!' Fasting after a crap sleep is soul destroying. BUT I feel hideous and can't stand it anymore and what if (shudder) baby Frazzle doesn't sleep for years? I'll be on a one way ticket to the diabetes clinic!

I've let so many of my old (good!) habits slide and reading through the thread has reminded me of these...

• no breakfast on NFD
• no snacking
• stick to 16:8 on NFD when possible
• eat healthy, nutritious food
• DRINK, DRINK, DRINK (water not wine!)

BC my own singing is horrific, yet Frazzles 1 & 2 think o should be on the stage! I'm sure Baby F will be just as tone deaf and appreciate you're lullaby .

Good FD here, coming in at 500. I will be joining Thursday fasters

Hi all, not posted for a week,

Came off my FD last Sunday and couldn't stop eating was so hungry. Last week was a write off what with that 2 meals out and 2 buffets. Only managed 1 FD and woke up Monday to tight and uncomfortable jeans and a 3lb gain.

Have decided on 3 days Fasting this week to make up for last.

I need to change my ways as I'm going to be honest I'm fine on FDs but on NFDs I've been awful for a couple of weeks now eating crap. I think because the FDs are keeping my weight down I'm using it to cheat my body eating whatever I want and not gaining but also not loosing.

I need to make space in my freezer and do a proper shop, I've fallen into the trap of going to Iceland bypassing the nice meat and veg and buying rubbish.

I need to get my head in gear and try and sort this. I was a bit embarrassed to post last week.

Rather than adding in an extra FD zebra (in my experience this only fuels the starve and binge cycle) perhaps you could focus on having successful NFDs instead?

Do you have a calorie goal for your NFDs?