5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hey MrD seeing your post has pulled me back onto the thread. So sorry to hear you are having a difficult time. Weirdly, similar picture here for me, still 5:2ing but have some days where a huge desire for carbs just hits out of nowhere. This has even happened on the odd FD too, which I 've never experienced before. After summer holiday I've been working hard to reduce portion size a bit to get back to steady weight losing but it's not been happening. Carb cravings sometimes come on a stressful day but other times just come from nowhere.

Like you I really really want to get back on track. We've both done SO well and made so many positive changes and transformed our health, size, etc this year so let's try and get back on track for the next stage.

Have had rumbling stresses resurface over last month and know that contributes to overeating and my work has got more demanding physically which makes me feel hungry but also worry that the old habits could just creep back in and I could slip back.

Sorry that your struggles have got me back here but thank you for your honesty MrD, and let's encourage each other to get back into this working for us again.

Can someone explain something for me please in regard to amount of weight loss?

If your TDEE is 2000 (to make the maths easy) and you do two FD at 500 calories then you create a weekly deficit of 3000 which together with a bit of exercise will add up to a loss of about a pound a week. I've been reading through some old threads and people are losing much more than this, certainly within the first month.

Does this WOE somehow speed weight loss up or am I missing something fundamental?

Hey Clear, sorry to hear you're struggling to be in the zone too - get posting daily again and we can boost each other!

Crepe - for me, it was a case of a few things... initially I had a lot of carb bloat so in addition to the 1lb fat, I lost a couple of lb of water too.

Then after that, I also found my habits were changing and the foods I was choosing to eat on my NFDs was much healthier too. Once my losses increased (and TDEE decreased, the losses slowed down)

Well done, Glass. Sounds like you are learning good habits,

MrD, Clear I suspected your absences might indicate problems.
Right < a sergeant major bellow > Report in daily, you two !

(Note: some folk, like our two chums here, are vulnerable to carbs, so this post may not apply to the majority)

A few thoughts why carb cravings may have reared their ugly head:

• Have you started snacking or grazing again [stern look] If so, stop
  Snacking - especially on junk - can set up cravings because it keeps insulin raised all the time. This tends to increase hunger - and also switch from burning fat to storing it

• Aim to drink 2 lt water daily, starting when you first get up.
  Drink plenty with meals, too.

• Plan your time to ensure a solid 8 hrs sleep
  Lack of sleep can spike cortisol & insulin, leading to carb cravings to replace missing energy

• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines
  Booze stops fat-burning for hours until all the toxic byproducts have been processed.
  It also increases the tendency to nibble mindlessly on junk

• Sugar & junk carbs spike insulin and start cravings spirals.
  They also tend to cause fat storage around the mid-section
  Cut out or 2:5 junk, i.e. allow a sensible portion, but only on 2 days per week.

• Go low GI (not low carb)
  So, boost protein (it keeps you full) - fish is especially good. Also boost non-starchy veg, beans & lentils.
  Swap some carbs for complex / wholegrain versions and keep total starchy carb portions within 100g cooked weight per meal
  Also cut out fruit juice, dried fruit. Keep fruit to 1-2 portions per day.

• Could your problems have been caused by returning to your old WOE on holidays ?

We all need a break from FDs, but in future, keep up good habits even on hols, because I think once you get off track with the type of food & drink, you both have problems returning.

So even on holiday:

• No snacking or grazing, eat 1-4 meals, nothing between
• Keep drinking water
• Don't increase junk intake
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines
• Do daily 16:8 and eat mindfully, aiming not to be much above TDEE

Thanks for the info BigChoc... I've been thinking and think the following have triggered my minor fall from grace -

• NOT drinking enough (my own mantra I know!) Focussing on that one again from right now
• Drinking lots of alcohol on holiday... Far more than I'd drunk in a year
• Not getting enough sleep

Mostly meals on holiday were fine - a few more deserts, but other than that nothing major, but there was wine consumed every night (and a fair bit a couple of nights too)

More recently, I haven't been snacking - but I have had a few crappy snacky things in the place of a meal

I think before, when things were going well I was naturally defaulting to more low GI stuff, so am trying to get my head thinking like that again - bought eggs ready for an occasional omelette lunch (which I learned to love last year) and have plenty of meat / fish / veg in the fridge and freezer.

I suspect as the weather continues to turn I'll find it easier as I love 'wholesome' winter type meals... cottage pie, slow cooker stews and casseroles etc etc and I always pack them full of veg.

So from tomorrow - I am going to aim for a week of GOOD EATING - will decide FDs if and when its going well, but I want to start nailing the NFDs again.
Lots of water
Low GI
No snacking
Alcohol only one day a week and 1-2 glasses

Thanks for the kick, I'm determined to get back in the zone!

Yes MrD let's cheer each other on...

Yes on the days I've 'lapsed', refined carbs creep in and even snacks on the 'worst' days, though most days I 've stuck to 3 meals and complex carbs only (but can still eat too much as feel so damn hungry quite often)
Lots of water is my norm so ok there
no alcohol (hardly ever drink)
lack of sleep and stress have definitely been a feature, some of the days I've lapsed it has simply been that old stress response

The 2 NFDs post FD are the trickiest in the week as I often feel so hungry and can easily eat back the calories if I'm not careful.

Have to remind myself that I may be transformed compared to 9 months ago but I actually need to do a whole lot more transforming to get to a truly healthy size.

MrD, Clear < inspects turnout for posture and polished uniform buttons >

You have both lost a few stone & inches which is brilliant fir health & shale
However, it also means that your TDEE will have dropped to that of your smaller body,
i.e. you can't get away with what you used to do

Also:

• it takes a while for your appetite - and your eyes - to get used to the new portion sizes
• there is not as much bodyfat hanging around to burn for fuel, so your body has to work harder to access it. Hence it increases appetite / cravings to encourage you to supply easier fuel, i.e. simple carbs.

Just stay on track and you'll reach goal
Keep good habits: mindful eating of high nutrient food, lots of fish, veg, beans. Add yoghurt & kefir to help the gut flora.

brilliant for health & shape < wipes yoghurt off iPad >

Tough FD for me today- full of cold and truly traumatic evening with the tweenagers meant the wine/chocolate/cheese were calling. Managed to hold off though and finished on 515 calories- I'm calling that a victory.

Crepe Calories in / out over-simplifies for some people, because the type & timing of the calories (fuel) may effect the metabolism (engine).
Hormones, gut flora and how fasting changes them interact with the effects of the calorie deficit.
So, the reality may be quite different

Those who lose 2-4 lb for the first several weeks on 5:2 typically have BMI 35-40+ at that stage.
In contrast, someone within healthy BMI trying to lose the last few lb may lose 1lb or less per month even with a 3000 deficit and healthy food.

With a very high BMI you have a "target-rich" environment:

• Much higher TDEE than someone near healthy BMI.
  Hence the FD deficit is much higher

• Fasting can significantly improve insulin resistance, which is often a major cause of being very overweight.
  It can improve conditions like PCOS, asthma, IBS which may have previously increased fat storage and / or appetite.
  So, even on NFDs, their intake may be lowered and / or contain less junk because their hormonal / metabolic issues have been improved.

• With so much bodyfat, it is easy to find some to burn for fuel.
  So, they often don't feel much hunger, because they are using their fat reserves.

In contrast, someone who is down to the last few extra lb would find the reserves more difficult to access.
Especially when they get down to the "stubborn" fat cells, with their high concentrations of alpha receptors which strongly resist fat-burning

Well done, Dakota You nailed a v tough FD

Also, Crepe People who have had a very carby junky diet may lose several lb the first 2 weeks of 5:2 - we've had losses of 1 stone just in that period- but most of that is release of water that was retained due to high carb intake.
The effect of fasting can mimic that of low carbing, in which a high initial water loss is also common.

Thanks bigchoc that makes things clearer. I was eating a very carby diet and have cut those right back so hopefully I will see some good results. I'm not weighing til I'm a month in but I do feel as if I've lost some fat around the middle already after 11 days.

Followed swiftly by a non-victory...gained this week. Pffft!

Have stuck to calories all week, so am putting it down to a fluke.

Dakota You may have lost 1lb of fat, which is being disguised by a temporary blip:
weight can vary naturally by a few lb due to undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water.

I've a 4-day weekend (German Public holiday on Monday), yippee !
< off to the gym now >

Friday Fast Day for me here. I was eyeing up an avocado this morning feeling tempted not to bother but having seen an article about sweet potato toast I'm keeping it till tomorrow.
Decaf coffee and sweetener for me.
Good luck all

Morning all

I'm checking in for Duty BCF!

Todays plan:
DRINK WATER (glass next to me as I type)
Run at lunchtime
Omelette for lunch
DRINK WATER
Spagetti Bolognese for dinner (lighter on the pasta)
DRINK WATER
Early night

Interestingly I can see I'm naturally more active in myself since return from holiday. My work is desk based and at home most of the time, so getting to 10,000 steps used to be an almost insurmountable challenge. I'd average about 4,000 before I started paying attention to it, and maybe 7,000 when I started focusing on it. I started wearing my garmin again 4 days ago - and without thinking about it I'm getting over 10,000 every day at the moment - am over the moon with that!

Life changing Darcy
I haven't been keeping up with the thread so much since the days of your ?moonwalk. How's all this IF going? (Don't have time to RTFT)

Wow bless you for remembering fusspot... well I'm back to the thread as the FDs have been going well but since my holiday the rest has gone to shite! So I've been beasted by BCF (at my request) and am back focussing on it all.

The main thing for me to remember though is that I'm still healthier, happier, more active, and considerably lighter than I was this time last year! I've just had to buy a new winter coat which felt amazing! The one I wore last year was too big then really, but no excuse now - new one is three sizes smaller!

Oops Darcy sorry. I just read 10 posts and there you are. (Which is why I've not been reading as time flies by and nothing done.) I'm also hovering at a much improved weight which I've maintained but getting a bit careless with the snacks.

My NFDS need work. I have a 10 yr old who's becoming more willing to try foods, a husband with IBS who only eats veg cos he knows he should. And a 6 yr old who.ought to.be on fussy eaters on Ch4. So disregarding Master Nuggets, does anyone care to share quick easy family teatime recipes? TIA.

I have a 9 year old who wouldn't eat any unprocessed meat if I didn't force her, but also rarely eats non-meat proteins... She's fab with fruit and veg and other things... hates trying new things.

and a 6 year old who will pretty much eat whatever you give him (avoiding the veg until reminded naturally) He does much better with allinone type meals (saves the constant eat your veg reminders)

Meals that work well for the three of us:
Shepherds / Cottage pie
Pasta Bakes - with veg / meat / fish added
Spaghetti Bolognese
Roasts
Jacket Potatos (I have curry in mine, DD has cheese and beans, DS has tuna mayo)
Stews - as long as I put more veg than meat in to stop DD whinging

Meals DS has loved that DD hated:
serrano ham and tiger prawn linguine (was AMAZING!)
Swordfish steak (on holiday)
Anything with Tuna
Jamie Olivers chicken and mushroom pie (again - delicious)
in fact, most pies

I'm always on the hunt for new meal ideas too.... Going to do the chicken and mushroom pie at the weekend... at least they both eat the mushrooms now! (unlike last time I made it) and a roast pork on Sunday I think.

Weighed in this morning and have 2lbs off, very happy with that. Total off in the last 3weeks = 11lbs (2 of those weeks with fast days and the first week eating within TDEE) really happy & motivated, here's to a sensible weekend now - good luck today Friday Fasters

Congrats on your SV, Halloween Good start & progress

That's a good FD plan, MrD
< peers around thread for clear

It's encouraging that you are maintaining, fusspot
Next step: stop snacking between meals, to help burn some more bodyfat