5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

BigChoc thanks. Especially as I'm doing this for my health and not because I'm particularly overweight (or post menopausal) anyway.
I wonder if you could please set me straight in something minor that has been niggling me for a little while? As you know, I'm quite young and already not overweight, so I've been concerned that if I stick to it all my life, when I get to the menopause I will just balloon and end up eating barely anything or having to exercise absolutely all the time. Is this a rational fear?
Koko, I'm not sure how many calories that was but you only ate on four separate occasions - one of the reasons I like fasting is because it helps with snacking (and I was a full on grazer eating many more times than four per day, albeit less each time). This thread is so supportive and you will probably find your hunger lessening as you go on. Good luck :)

Kokoko don't worry some days are a write off but that is ok. It doesn't stop you from having future good days. It shows how easy it is to overeat. You can make up for it on other days.

I am on FD today. Good luck to all fasters

Hi all.... can I hop on board (Again!). did 5:2 a few (2?3?) years ago and it worked really well for me, not sure why I came off it (I think it was a holiday that did it!!) anyway, all the weight seems to have crept back on and I need to get a grip. I tend to get a bit obsessed about scale numbers so I'm actually not going to weigh myself this time, but go by clothes fit and feel as I actually dont mind the way I look, but I know I have too much visceral fat.
My plan is to try and ease my way in, this week I'm skipping breakfast, eating nutritiously and having only lunch and dinner, and next week I will start IF proper. Fast days will be Tues and Thurs.
Fingers crossed I can adopt this permanantly.

Cecile That's rather an odd worry !
Did you get worried about the mythical "starvation mode" ? - that is nothing to do with Intermittent Fasting.

Research shows that fasting actually raises metabolic rate, providing the fast isn't too long.
The maximum benefit of regular FDs appears to occur in the period 14-22 hrs on zero cals, which helps explains why 16:8 tends to boost loss, as does having your 500 FD cals in just one meal.

In fact, starvation mode - which is actually quite rare - seems to occur when people combine a very low cal diet for several months with 2 or 3 hours per day of cardio exercise, plus sometimes additional stress from lack of sleep, job, bullying, family etc
Basically, the cumulative stress exceeds the healthy limit for that particular body, which drastically dials down metabolic rate to preserve fat / fuel reserves.

You are more likely to balloon at menopause if your weight and / or eating habits are not well controlled before.

One of the advantages of weight loss via 5:2, as with other forms of IF, is that it would tend to produce higher TDEE than daily calorie restriction, because on 5:2 you normally have at least a couple days per week at, or above, TDEE.

Longterm maintenance with 5:2 or 6:1 means that you are regularly eating above TDEE on one or more days which helps maximise TDEE longterm
The FD / NFD contrast probably also helps maintain TDEE, particularly since the FDs are a minority of the week.

Welcome, Captain

Longterm Weight Management (applies to all of us)
We should regard 5:2 - or any other successful weight loss method - as the start of a lifetime WOL, not a temporary diet.
So we all need a definite maintenance plan, instead of the triumph of hope over experience.

Many people can lose weight - again & again & again ..... but it becomes progressively more difficult every decade as your body ages.

Once you reach goal

• Keep to a maintenance plan , e.g. 5:2 / 6:1 / 16:8 / Brad Pilon's Eat Stop Eat / mix it up ....
• Weigh regularly, at least weekly
• If you regain 4lb, e.g. after a holiday breaks, return to 5:2 immediately until you return to Happy Weight Then resume maintenance.

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old Weight & Waist !

Kitchen is closing (once DH finishes making the cup of tea!) at 951 kcal. Skipping breakfast definitely seems to work best for me on FDs. I get much hungrier once I have started eating for the day.

Had another few compliments from people saying how "svelte" I am looking, and from people that I hardly know, so I must be looking fitter.

Morning all and good luck to the Wednesday fasters
Well done, that's a motivating compliments NSV, Countess

Svelte, eh, Countess ? I've been IFing for over 4 years and no one has ever call me svelte! [jealous]

Great NSV!

It's my birthday today [no fuss, please!] and my presents included a new backup for my Mac - plus 4 bars of chocolate. I breakfasted on Green and Black's ginger chocolate - just a few pieces - to celebrate. But I'll make sure all that chocolate takes me a month or so to consume.

But the nicest thing I've received so far is the video clip from my family, with my 3yr-old GS singing along to Happy Birthday!

I was invited to judge a baking competition at the local YM on Friday, but I had to withdraw when I realised I'd have to taste the results - and I'm a vegan!

But I've been invited by BBC Somerset Sound to interview me on the radio at 7.45 [eek] tomorrow to discuss tonight's edition of Bake Off!

My usual rising time is 9.15-30ish!

Happy Birthday, BreadandWine
I'm so impressed about you being invited on the Beeb - again. You're our own sleb
or did everyone else refuse to get up at sparrowfart
Do post the link to your broadcast

and since you are our 5:2 pressup hunk, of course you are "svelte"

Aw, thanks, BC!

I meant to mention biscuits:

I used to say the only safe way to eat a biscuit was to take one out of the house with you, wait until you get halfway down the road - and only then eat it!

But I've now reached the stage where I can take 1 biscuit out of a packet - this after dinner - and put the packet away again. [smug]

Haapy birthday bread well done countess.

FD number 2 here. Sort if going ok. But i am cold and bored which is a very dangerous combination.

Has anyone seen/tried the constant cravers version of 5:2?

Round A 5:2 variant was the recommended diet for constant cravers

Mosely said on this Horizon Special, scientists applied a series of tests to 75 overweight volunteers, which enabled them to be divided into 3 "tribes" each with a suitable diet:

The Constant Cravers:
Those who have genes (such as the FTO gene) which put them at greater risk of becoming obese.
He said they are probably the toughest group to help, since their genetics make them particularly susceptible to over-eating.
They were put on 5:2, but their FDs were consecutive and up to 800 cals.
So, weight loss was probably slightly slower than our version, especially for those with low TDEE, but maybe easier - try if you like.

The Feasters:
People whose bodies produce low amounts of a gut hormone called GLP-1 in response to food.
GLP-1 tells the brain “you have eaten enough”.
Feasters go on eating because their gut takes that much longer to say to the brain, “you’re full”. In the Horizon film they are the ones who eat the most at a buffet.

The Emotional Eaters:
In a psychological questionnaire, they are found to typically turn to food when stressed.
They were given a standard low calorie diet with psychological support

Btw, the Feasters tribe were put on high protein, low GI

don't think I remember your name on here before but do I recognise you as a poster who had an unusual pregnancy a couple of years ago?

erm- yes that would be me. My surprise baby is now 3 years old!!

Ive lost a whopping 5lbs since last monday!!

Thanks bigchoc i think next week i will give the variant a go. I strangely wasn't at all hungry yesterday after fasting, but today i have really struggled. I will maybe play the long game this time rather than endlessly looking for quick results and failing.

That's right, Round That weight probably took years to gain, so will take time & patience to lose.
No magic potions, sadly.
The only quick - and safe - WOE I know is Mosely's BSD, but that is much tougher: 8 weeks of daily 800 calories, all low carb

On 5:2, the average loss is 1lb weekly. This may not sound much, but it is pure fat & water, not muscle like conventional diets.
So you normally see & feel the difference in clothes fit quite early and the loss adds up after a couple of months to make a big difference.
If you've a few stone to lose, it may be at a rate of 3lb for several weeks.

What has the most effect on your weight loss ? the NFDs !
For 95% of people who don't lose properly on 5:2, the problem is massive over-eating & snacking on NFDs.

Well done on your SV, Emma
A good start. Just keep going and you'll reach goal.

Well done TiredEmma - 5lb is a lot! I've just had a surprise baby too - I knew about it almost immediately but I was a very unlikely candidate for pregnancy I blame 5:2

Quick question - supposed to be on FD tomorrow (thurs) and everyone in the house seems to have a cold. I don't feel like I have a cold but feel like I've got something as just feel ever so slightly grotty, but still functioning normally.

Do I skip FD tomorrow or carry on as normal?

Carry on as normal unless you feel ill.

Hello it's been a couple of weeks since I last checked in. I am a stone lighter than I was just over a month ago and clothes feel loser. I am very tall so it takes two stone to drop a dress size for me. In that time I have been working out 3-4 days a week; juggling two children both who have just just started significant new years at school (the admin) and hit a busy period in an already stressful job for my sins. Throughout that I kept firmly focused on this WOE. I have been fasting twice a week (500-600kcals - decided this would be ok at TDEE is 2000), throwing in a mini fast if I have had a bad NFD (2000+, which is usually due to a girls night with lots of wine) ,and not calorie counting per se just being a bit mindful of what I eat. I do HIIT training on FDs as I find it suppressed appetite. These aren't getting any easier though. I am still scared of the weekend NFDs and if I had these in check I would have lost more weight I think. But in hindsight I would have been miserable by now so maybe this way is good for me until I plateau as this is stillroughly 2lb per week loss. I hope to keep this up for another 7lb before a plateau (fingers crossed). Would love to be another stone lighter by Christmas but hat seems a pipe dream and I'm not willing to be miserable and miss out on parties etc. I find driving to celebrations helps though as it makes me stay within the drink drive limit. But then I binge on sweet things (which I have cut back on considerably lately). I used to think nothing of eating family size chocolate bars in 15 minutes. It will take a long time before I am where I want to be with this 'addiction' so for now will just continue to take one day at a time and hope for more SV. I am a sucker for numbers on scales . I keep reading the posts which helps a lot too. Thanks for keeping me going

Congrats on your SV, glass and your clothes NSV.
2lb weekly is a good rate of loss and you sound on track to another stone before the Christmas party season.

Being tall is quite an advantage wrt weight loss and TDEE
500-600 cal FDs are fine.

What would help progress is to work on no snacking - so have your chocolate & sweet "treats" only as part of a meal and have a drink of water with the treat.

Sugar and booze both switch you from fat burning to fat storage, so reducing the weekly consumptionwould also help
You can 2:5 sweet junk, i.e. only have it on 2 days per week.
On social occasions, alternate glasses of fizzy water (ice & a slice) in between glasses of booze. You may appreciate the wine even more, with the contrast.

Reading back I sound like I drink a lot, but it averages about a bottle of wine a week which I hope to get to half a bottle. I didn't mention that based on your previous advice I have been having treats as part of my meal more often than not and yes his helps cravings and reducing the snacking. When I've caved I've stuck to low GI. Every little helps. It's early days. Will keep reading and tweaking. Thanks for he encouragement.

Ok - I'm here to ask for help

I'm slipping...

I'm still fasting every week (often only once though), I'm exercising more (running 3-4 times a week), however... since my return from holiday I appear to have become addicted to carbs again or something... I can't get enough of them on my NFDs - I've not really lost anything since returning and am concerned that some good habits have slipped ....

SO - Kick me, poke me, do what you need - but PLEASE help me get back into this properly!! I so want the weight loss to continue!! I'd love to be another dress size smaller by Christmas!

I've had a bit of a stressful time (financial concerns , dick of an ex concerns etc) and am concerned that this has contributed.. I certainly used to be an emotional eater, but haven't done this in a year - and definitely feel that hasn't slipped fully.

I shall attempt to post daily to help get me thinking along the right lines again too.

Hi folks, Fd2 of this week today - I ended up having another fd on Tuesday as mondays didn't end that well (surprise party with cake and lots of goodies, would have been very rude not to accept!) but I nailed it on Tuesday and planning the same today, actually find it easier when I have only one nfd in between so this might become my pattern. Thank you Bigchoc for the welcome back, I was talking to the Consultant I was attending about the 5:2 WOL (he does 5:2 himself, lost a lot of weight on it,and said he would like it to be something that could be prescribed for patients in certain circumstances ) as initially when I was diagnosed with a clot I was scared that maybe the fact I had been fasting had something to do with it, he told me that in fact fasting is a great way of thinning the blood, that's why he recommended I keep it up after coming off the warfarin, he also told me that is why sometimes people will say they feel cold during FDs, due to your blood thinning out!

Anyway back to it, have a good fd Thursday fasters