5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

How did the Saturday FDs go, Daisies, anyone else ?

I'm having a Sunday FD, so I'll be off to the gym for a heavy weights day, plus a walk along the Rhein with XCO weights
I take kefir, veg juice & protein shakes in a cool bag, plus ipad so I can Kindle.
Lovely sunny day and my favourite pampering FD
First, I have to wait for the washing machine to disgorge < drums fingers >

Morning BigChoc and anyone else who comes along

FD went well. The scales have started to shift again!! I lost 2lbs this week after my plateau so really pleased.

I did try something a little different. My FD needs to be closer to 400 calories than 500 which is more challenging.

Enjoy your day BigChoc

I have been on and these threads. BigChoc may recognise my name from the various "welcomes' that she gives everytime I come and say "I am going to try again"

Very successfully lost 17lbs on 5.2 way back in 2013 and then just literally struggled with it.

I have a really unhealthy relationship with shit food and find myself binging and then hating myself.

Last week weighed in at 10st 7lbs which is too heavy for 4ft11" me. Decided to grab the 5.2 bull by the horns again. Instead of looking for various syuitable FD meals I have just decided to stick with 'easy' for FD's so last week just consumed egg and soup on my FD. Easy enough.
I think I probably failed my other 5.2 attempts post 2013 because I forever tried to find scrumptious meals and this then made it a chore for me.

So last week I did the egg and soup on FD and on my NFD I ate what I wanted, didnt track but had in my subconcious that if I ate like a complete swine then it would cancel out my FD's

Ive lost 2lb. Not a huge amount but I am delighted because I know I can do this now.

Eggs and soup....eggs and soup.....eggs and soup...

Hi I'm aiming to start 5:2 this week! How's is everyone finding it?

Welcome user
Most folk get used to fasting after a couple of weeks.
5:2 works if you do the 2 fast days and eat normally / sensibly (don't binge) on the other 5 days
Many people have reached their goals on 5:2, whether several stone or just trimming a few lb.

I'll give you another "welcome back," TiredEmma Let's nail it this time.
Well done on your FD; Protein & veg keeps you fuller.
Many people do better with simple FD meals that save them time & effort, rather than the stress of trying to be a 500-cal gourmet cook.
In fact, if FD food is too delicious, it may increase appetite.

At 4'11", weight management is tougher for you, because your TDEE is much lower than average. Hence, far less wiggle room for indulgences.
Too much junk food is a problem for anyone though: sugary / carby fatty calorie bombs which switch your body to fat storage and also create craving spirals for more junk

For you, I recommend (probably I've done so before !)

• no snacking, so you can have more satisfying meals on NFDs.
• Base meals on protein, masses of veg, beans & lentils, sensible portions of carbs. Drink lots of water.
• Wrt junk, some folk need a total ban; others do well on 2:5, i.e. treats only on 2 days per week - moderate portion not binge. Choose your strategy.
• Regard 5:2 as a permanent WOL, not a diet you jump on / off. At maintenance, 2 FDs will allow you to eat above TDEE on NFDs

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Today was my first FD (might do Mondays instead as a rule). I did it! Just cups of tea this morning (did count my milk), 2 boiled eggs at 12.30 and an early dinner of a Sainsburys Goodness ready meal - pulled pork with rosemary potatoes and beans in tomato sauce (305 cals).

Felt REALLY hungry all day (especially as my day started at 5.30 with toddler) and had an awful headache for most of it but drank lots of water and herbal tea and had some paracetamol. Does it get better/easier?

Advice please! I ended up eating around 570 Cals today just because of various factors when I hadn't intended it to be a FD. Even though it's over 500 shall I put it down as one of my FDs this week? Or do two as planned?

Well done on your SV, Daisies and for staying on track despite a short sts.
Everyone has the odd week when the scales don't shift - often there was really a 1lb loss which was just hidden by the temporary retention of a little extra water.

Cherry 570 definitely counts as your FD; no replacement needed

BFers can have 1000 cals on FDs
Anyone else:

• Under 700, count as your FD, just be sensible on NFDs
• 700-1000 is a mini-FD, add another mini
• 1000+ have another FD

Well done on your 1st FD, kokoko
Most folk take a couple of weeks to get used to fasting

Headaches:

• Mid-morning & mid-afternoon, have 1 teasp Marmite or 1 tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (each 10 cals) Even if you dislike the taste, regard it as a spoonful of medicine and glug it down.

This replenishes lost salt & minerals which may cause headaches while your body is getting used to fasting (or to low carb) - you are consuming much less food & drinking more water

TiredEmma If your bingeing / unhealthy choices are carby - cakes, biscuits, sweets, choc, crisps, pizza etc - and are still continuing on NFDs, then I suggest combining low carb or low GI with 5:2

I.e. base all meals on protein, veg, beans & lentils optionally adding small portions of starchy carbs (max 100g cooked weight per meal);
move to baked / boiled potatoes instead of mash / chips, also quinoa, wholegrain bread, brown rice instead of white alternatives.

Fruit: Mosely advises limit of 1-2 portions daily, eating berries, apples, pears rather than high-sugar fruit like banana, mango or dried fruit.

First week done - jumped on the scales this morning and weighed in at 10st 8.8lb - that's 3lbs off so super pleased with that, even more so as it wasn't just after a FD and I had a number of social functions last week. Regardless of weight loss, I've just felt so much better in myself, suspect it is the feeling of being back in control.

Fasted Monday and Wednesday last week - have tried to fit FD in on days when I don't do 1-2 hours of hard exercise otherwise I feel too wobbly and sick. However I'm mindful not too overeat on those days and try to eat clean food rather than rubbish.

Other thing I didn't do was weigh myself every day (something I had got into the habit of and then found disheartening as my weight fluctuated so much over the period of a week). So will be sticking to weighing in once a week on a Monday morning.

Just out of curiosity is anyone else going through the menopause and has the irregular nature of things affected your weight loss?

Hello again, a slight false restart at the beginning of the month. Work took over resulting in my consuming nothing but 2 packs of fruit pastilles and a pack of crisps one day. Did not seem conducive to any form of healthy eating/diet.

Today is a FD. And i am determined to see it though to the end. Looks like i will finish on 550 cals, but that will be a marked improvement from the 2500 a day i am currently devouring!

I have decided to not focus on the NFD'S for a while (my snacking is a monster that is going to take some serious taming). Instead focus on getting the FD's right

Hi TiredEmma and welcome back. I've stopped trying to make my FD foods interesting or exciting as have a small baby and don't really have the time. I tend to live on eggs and soup too (with salad) and actually enjoy the monotony of it!

I don't think I remember your name on here before but do I recognise you as a poster who had an unusual pregnancy a couple of years ago?

Congrats on your SV, SilverBeetle

Menopause
The hormonal changes tend to add weight around the midsection for almost all women - my mum warned me of this weight gain back in the 1960s, i.e. long before the obesity epidemic started.

I found in the years just before and during the menopause that I suddenly gained several lb around previously ripped abs.
My eating & gym had not changed.
A few years low carb didn't help this - because my insulin metabolism was always pretty healthy, being a lifelong exerciser. Low carb is great for those with insulin resistance or pre-T2 though.
Low fat healthy eating with no added sugar, daily calorie reduction - didn't help.
On both those diets I was always hungry, too - it's not true that everyone feels full on low carb.

5:2 was the only WOE that worked for me, to get me back from the uppermost limit - I had got up to BMI 24.9 and waist / height =0.5
I also found after goal that I could never return to my old WOE, because I no longer had the body I had before meno.
So, 5:2 or 6:1 is my permanent WOL, although I can allow 650-800 cal FDs.

Another change: I can't get away with the junk I used to live on and now I realise how unhealthy that was.
So, despite my username, sugary treats are occasional and only from a good quality restaurant dessert menu or good bakery.

Well done in your loss SilverBeetle - those lbs will soon add up (I'm 20lb down) and you're right about the control. I stopped feeling so horrified about my very heavy post pregnancy weight once I realised I was perfectly capable of losing it and not just returning to pre preg weight but perhaps the weight I was 10 years ago! I now see myself as a work in progress and am not afraid to look at myself in the mirror!

Round When someone can't tackle it 5:2 all at once, I normally suggest leaving the FDs for now and working on the NFDs.
So, each day concentrate on eating 3-4 nourishing meals, no snacks between. If you want "treats" have them as oart of an NFD meal

Otherwise, many folk find they just don't lose.
See how it goes for you
BUT some folk do manage to get near goal, with 2 or 3 FDs per week and just ignore NFD habits. However, since the NFDs are out of control, they usually regain and keep coming back.

So, control of NFDs is essential for maintenance and I recommend people regard the weight loss period as the time when they learn these new habits.

Hi everyone it's been a while since I've been on this thread (or fasted for that!)had a health complications last year which meant no fasting while I was on meds but off them since June and given the all clear to go back to 5:2ing again (it was actually encouraged by the consultant!) so I started back 5:2ing last week, had 2 good fds and a sensible weekend and back to it today. Just had soup for lunch (130cals) and having a lovely Spanish omelette with salad for this evening (300 calls) the rest up to 500 is for milky teas to keep me going. Hope everyone has a good FD I have missed it, glad to be back

Panda I switched from bus/Tube to commuting by bicycle. I don't know where you live but despite it being six miles in Central London, the dangers, the pollution, the shouting and the bad manners from other road users, I would not go back if you paid me. I always feel better and more energised after a cycle ride, more optimistic about the day and I never regret doing it. You can do it! I believe in you :)

Thanks for the messages of support

Interesting post BigChocFrenzy - it explains a lot. The extra pounds have gone round my mid section - never had this problem before . Unfortunately my mum passed away some years ago so don't have anyone to ask. Low carb definitely doesn't work for me either any more even though the gym advisor recommended it to me and it has worked in the past. I find it shifts a few pounds initially but am constantly starving and as I can't sustain it, tend to binge and it goes straight back on plus some.

At least I know it's just not poor will power on my part - thank goodness for 5:2 and thanks for sharing your experience. I was thinking I may have to get used to looking like someone wearing a partially deflected rubber ring under their gym vest but with very toned arms and legs - a very odd look.
I'll let you know how I get on.

That's a good 1st week back, HalloweenQueen
Good to hear you are off the meds and feeling so much better.
Very interesting that your consultant was encouraging you to 5:2 - many doctors are doing 5:2 themselves, as well as recommending it to patients.

MENOPAUSE, Weight Gain & Control

High insulin levels (from sugary, high carb food) encourages fat storage;
prolonged high cortisol (caused by stress, lack of sleep) tends to hinder fat-burning.

• Estrogen is a hormone that counteracts insulin and cortisol.
• Progesterone counterracts cortisol only.

Younger women have high levels of these 2 hormones; hence, weight control is easier.

At menopause, when both hormones drop drastically, a woman typically:

1. has slower metabolism due to much lower estrogen.
   Real TDEE drops and averages 200-400 below calculated value. So, lower calorie intake to new TDEE.

2. is more sensitive to simple carbs, even fruit, due to increased insulin resistance.
   Fat is likely to be added around abdomen, where it increases health risks.
   So:

• replace most simple carbs by complex ones.
• Also reduce even these carb portions, e.g. bread to 2 wholegrain slices / 1 roll daily, pasta or rice to a fist-sized portion daily.
• Reduce fruit to max 2 portions daily
• Drastically reduce junk food, especially sweet junk, even home-cooked baking.

3. is more likely to have thyroid imbalance - low estrogen can slow thyroid function.
   Anyone with a previously sluggish thyroid (women are more prone to this) will likely find pre-menopause worsens this considerably.
   Consult your GP if you suspect thyroid issues.

4. Loss of muscle mass, which lowers metabolism and raises health risks.
   Occurs from age 25 for all non-exercisers; it accelerates around menopause.

To retain / build muscle requires weight-bearing exercise, e.g. squats, pressups, lifting.
Cardio is NOT sufficient and may even increase muscle loss.

5. is more vulnerable to stress. Anyone chronically stressed will have raised cortisol levels, tending to increased fat storage.

As well as final career surge, caring for elderly parents, teenagers, uni students ... make time for yourself too, to relax.

Monday fast day here - had a couple of boiled eggs at lunch time and looking forward to the soup I made last night for supper. I've used some of my calories for milk in my coffee this am. I'm enjoying today's fast day, safe in the knowledge that I'll be eating more (but not lots more) tomorrow.

Halloween, your Spanish omelette sounds yum, I'll look for a low calorie recipe as it'd be a good work lunch option.

Cecile, I'm slowly building my London cycling confidence - great to hear your positive view.

That's great to hear onwego, I love encouraging people to join the cycling brigade.
Sorry to have been so quiet, everyone, and rather to have fallen off the fasting wagon. A relative got very bad health news, primary oesophageal cancer which had metastasised, which is very upsetting obviously and also scary, as like me she has had GI issues and reflux all her life. I know I need to double down on improving my health, though. It just hit me rather hard, alongside a busy month of many short trips. I'm also ill (again) with some sort of horrible virus. I wouldn't normally, but any sort of cheerleader and/or tough love would be appreciated! FDs pencilled in for Wednesday and Friday, and I will come in at about 800 today because I'm just not hungry.
Nice to hear so many SVs, NSVs and newcomers (I still consider myself a relative newcomer). Good luck everyone. And thank you as always BigChoc for your helpful advice.

Thanks bigchoc. I know and understand what you are saying about getting the nfd's under control first. But i am a realist, and my snacking is too big a monster to control just now. I would sooner focus and wrestle the monster for 2 days than try a week of getting disheartened on 'full cals' no snacking everyday. As it is i am closing on 510 and hopping in the bath away from temptation (although i would have to dig deep as there is nothing in the house to eat)

Sorry to hear about your relative, Cecile
I know it's very upsetting and rather alarming when cancer strikes near home.

On this WOL, we always prioritise health.
So, if that virus is producing fever, or making you feel weak, or queasy, I strongly recommend you don't fast until you have recovered.
Intermittent Fasting is the nutritional equivalent of HIIT:
both are based on hormesis , i.e. intervals of high loading which increase resilience, but should NOT be done when ill, or they may over-stress your system.

So, apply TLC and healthy maintenance to support your immune system in its work:

• have nutritious meals within TDEE daily - include lots of veg, no junk, no booze
• if you are not hungry though, don't force yourself to eat, but drink plenty of water

Onwego, cecile I remember cycling in London in the 1970s, so I admire you both for handling the pressure. Excellent for fitness.
I love cycling and I commute to work, gym & shops exclusively by bike, but that's much easier & safer in Germany, with so many cycle lanes, much better layout.

Hello... so my first NFD yesterday wasn't a huge success. My eyes are being opened to just how much I usually eat.

Had porridge for breakfast before leaving home (6.45) and then a Leon eggs and ham pot when I got to work (8.30). I know snacking isn't advised but I always find I need a big/double breakfast or I end up starving at work.

Then I didn't eat until lunch (1.30) - my team had planned a pub lunch to welcome a new colleague and the menu was all pretty unhealthy. I had a pork schnitzel with sweet potato wedges and salad. It was greasy! Also succumbed to a small glass of wine. At least these lunches out are rare for us.

Didn't eat again until 8pm when my mum arrived to stay with me this week. We always get a takeaway as I'd not long got home and got the toddler to bed. And it's a kind of celebration as I haven't seen her for ages (lives other end of country). I didn't want to be a misery - got lamb tikka with aubergine bhaji and poppadums. And 3 more glasses of wine. I'm going to have to reign this in, aren't I?!