5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on your SV and managing b2b, Maclairey
Wow, b2b is hardcore, especially so early in your WOE. Yes, it's sensible to have breakfast on FD2 of that, if you feel hungry.

Ouch, your poor teeth, Stripey Hopefully your op next week will put that right.

Now you are probably quite a low BMI, it is much more difficult to find bodyfat available to burn.
Also, you are down to the really "stubborn" fat cells which have 9x as many alpha receptors (strongly resist fat-burning) to beta receptors (allow fat-burning)

It'll be a slow process, but
what shifts stubborn fat:

• Cut alcohol & added sugar right down, preferably out for now. They hinder fat-burning
• Go low GI and avoid "treat days" - just have a single treat occasionally
• Add ONE of Mosely's few minute Fat Blasts on 5 days per week. No more than that.
• Do short (30-60 mins) sessions of intense HIIT fasted training 3 times per week, i.e. short sharp shocks. NOT longer than 60 mins, or itt's not intense.

• For now, cut out medium intensity cardio like swimming or running (sprint intervals are great though)

+ Have a walk on your training restdays - at least one day per week must be wihout training This is to reduce stress and possible fat-retaining effects of the cortisol stress hormone + Also to reduce stress, make sure you get plenty of sleep every night. + Shorten your eating windows with 16:8 and in the 16 hrs just drink water and zero-cal beverages

Thanks very much Cats that's kind of you! It definitely felt like a fast to me, TBH I think I would struggle to only eat 500 calories in a day anyway! It's a lot less than I've been eating lately, could easily eat 2500-3000 calories on a day between food and wine. This is why I like the idea of this lifestyle in that you can indulge on some days and cut down on others.

FD yesterday so I weighed myself this morning. I have lost another 1.5lb this week taking my total to 10.5lb. I'm pretty happy with that

Congrats on your SV, Emison Good progress

PlanetEarth That was a good 1st FD back.

Some people do better easing their way into fasting, or deliberately allowing higher-cal FDs and accepting a slightly slower loss to make the WOE sustainable.

If you have a high (> 2400) TDEE, you should lose quite quickly on mini-FDs anyway
(We call anything 700-100 cals a mini-FD)

Ah countess that makes
Sense - impressed that you're doing this while breastfeeding! 

cats wow that's just what I needed to hear ! Thanks and well done on your amazing loss!

This thread is so inspiring ! Well done to those who have lost a lot (and a little bit) of weight .. Every pound counts!

doineed fast day for me too here! Hope it's going well for you x

I'm back on my FD today..I only had one on Wednesday but since I have started mid week, I just wanted to get my two fast days in before the weekend.. Going to my mums and sisters over the weekend, which is usually a bit of a carb-fest, but will try to be really good because I want to boost any potential loss in my first week so that it spurs me on!

This is going to be a stupid question but about the 16:8... When your doing one of these, do you have to be awake/ must the fast be during the day? So you have to be awake, up and about for 16 hours without any food???

Or have I got that wrong

What I meant to say was, does the majority of the fast have to be during the day... Or can you cheat and have 10-12 hours of nighttime as part of the fast and then another 6/4 hours from say 8am-12 pm and then you can eat till 8pm?

makes herself sound more stupid than she thought she was

Your fasting time can include overnight

BigChoc how can you tell the difference between the stubborn fat cells and the easy ones? How do they get that way?

So had my first fd on Wednesday and yesterday and today have been real eye opener in terms of what I have got used to eating. I've also learnt very quickly that I must eat proper meals on nfds. I skipped lunch yesterday and ended up surpassing my tdee in snacks before 7pm :(

However, today has been a lot better. No snacks at all and I'm still alive I swear my stomach seems less bloated but pretty sure this is wishful thinking after 1 fd and 3 days in, 1 of which was a disaster!! Actually looking forward to Monday to see how 2nd fd goes.

House The 16 hours fast in 16:8 must be continuous.
Typically 16 = 8 hrs sleep and 8 hrs awake, e.g. 8 pm - 12 noon the next day

Cecile "Stubborn" fat is the very last bits, which hangs on like a bugger even though you are doing everything correctly.

Men & women have stubborn fat in different areas.
For women, it is typically lower body, i.e. bum & thighs, where that last stubborn few lb really doesn't do you any harm.
Poor blood flow locally is one factor leading to stubborn fat there. Other factors are type of diet & exercise.
You are normally just within healthy BMI and so you can decide whether you really need to lose it.

Useful Article describes the biology and how to burn it - v slowly, with a large dollop of patience - basically what I posted to Stripey

Well done on cutting out snacks yesterday, Knowler
That usually boosts weight loss and often reduces hunger levels too.

Rmember, everyone:
If an FD doesn't go to plan, just do your best, them move on and nail your next one
We don't have "failed" FDs, just "postponed" ones

oops, it was today you cut out the snacks.
After supper, I recommend you clean your teeth right away, to reduce the temptation of late snacking

Wish my stubborn fat was bums and thighs choc I've found an unexpected downside of my weight loss is that it's gone from my bum - looks great (IMHO!) but I really miss the padding! After a lifetime of sitting comfortably I now need a cushion if I'm sitting on a hard bench or chair. It actually took me a while to work out why I was so uncomfortable - it was such a new experience!

mine is around the waist sadly. My one big failure wrt this way of life is exercise . I do plenty of steps a day but haven't bitten the bullet to do anything like HIIT. I think if I'm going to actually tone up this new body I need to tackle that one

Ah ok ginger and bigchoc... Does that include tea/coffee as well?

Today was a FD for me so I had two boiled eggs for breakfast and then we went out to eat.. But I didn't like the food! So I ended up not eating a lot, just the starter really. I don't know how many calories it was altogether to be honest. I feel abit hungry now and am really tempted to go and have a snack as evening snacking is my big weakness but I'm trying my best not to feeling a bit glum!

I'm doing the 16:8 from 11pm tonight so I can't eat anyway. I think it's time for bed !

Seems us veggie/vegans know a thing or two when it comes to losing weight:

www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/dieting/heres-what-you-should-eating-8749598

Tea and coffee are OK, house - as long as you count the cals in any milk you use. BC recommends almond milk as being a low-cal alternative.

Catsrus
I'm like you - doing plenty of steps, but need to start HIIT... Except I have no idea what to do. I know it's intervals etc, but how long they should be and which exercises I should be doing - no idea. The kids go back to school middle of next week, so I'm planning on trying to figure it out after that. I'm down to the last few pounds to, but it's my bum/thighs which need to go!

HIIT is where I'm going wrong..... I can easily notch up 8.5k steps just puttering around the house and during term time I swim /jog for 3 hours a week. So if that's classified as medium activity, no wonder the pounds won't shift.

A nice sunny Saturday here
I'm off for a walk soon. Lifting & spin this afternoon.

Zero cals: water, optionally diet fizz, hot drinks with no sugar or cows milk. A drizzle of unsweetemed almond milk is ok, only 2 cals, so ok

Fat around midsection

May be difficult to shift, but is often not "stubborn" fat physiologically:
i.e. it doesn't have such high alpha receptor concentrations, except for the last inch to get ripped (if that is your aim)
It also increases health risks (stubborn fat around the lower body fat is annoying, but not really harmful)

If you are an "apple" shape, then your excess fat is concentrated more about your waist, rather than lower body or all over.
This is usually hormonal - raised insulin levels preferentially storing fat around the stomach.

Main causes & solutions:

• Menopause, pre-meno.
  So, from mid-30s for many women
  Your changed hormonal balance increases insulin levels, so you tend to store a lot more fat around your middle than in your younger days.
  ==> Change your lifestyle, as below. Sadly, we can't eat like teens anymore
  ==> Do 16:8, with 16 hrs zero calories. Do fasted morning training. Do HIIT & lifting, not long cardio sessions

• Snacking / grazing
  Keeps insulin levels high between meals.
  ==> Eat 3-4 meals per day, NO snacks or calories in between. Have any fruit, alcohol or "treats" as part of a meal, not on its own

• Too high sugar or high carbs for your particular body keeps insulin level high, hence fat-storing.

Genetically, people have different tolerances and, over decades, lifestyle / medical conditions can reduce carb tolerance. Some thrive on 300g carbs daily, some on 100g and some need to stay under 50g
==> Reduce the GI of your diet by switching from simple to complex carbs and measuring portion size.
==> Reduce sugary / carby "treats"
Cut them out totally on FDs and try to have them on only 2 NFDs (portion size then is 10-20% TDEE, e.g. 2-400 cals for TDEE 2000)

Mosely's low carb Mediteranean maintenance plan (i.e. not the diet) is suitable for all:
Eat more fish, beans, lentils, veg, plain Greek yoghurt. Keep fruit within 2 portions daily. Small portions of wholegrains & root veg. Avoid sugary breakfast cereals, fruit juice, dried fruit.

• Too much alcohol
  Alcohol stops fat-burning for hours until your liver has processed all the toxic byproducts
  ==> Keep to nhs limits always. Maybe kickstart with a dry month
  ==> Always keep alcohol to mealtimes, not on its own. Never on FDs.

• Modern sedentary lifestyles
  An hour's exercise can't compensate for 8 hours sitting in an office, then hours in front of TV / electronics.
  ==> If allowed (at work), get up & walk briskly for 3 mins each hour, ideally walk up stairs. Or do chair exercises.
  ==> Swap long cardio sessions to short intense HIIT, e.g. sprint intervals, rope skipping, pump, circuits, Tabata.
  Combine the 2 extremes: short high intensity sessions plus boost your walking to 10k steps on restdays

HIIT
The OP in the 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 describes the various kinds of exercise, especially lifting & HIIT, plus the science behind hormesis / IF / HIIT.
For anyone wanting to start HIIT, but v short of time, check out Mosely's Fat Blasts there - just a few minutes on 3-5 days, which has a surprising effect on insulin metabolism
Or post there for advice about a suitable exercise plan for your individual body & circumstances.

Oops Exercise Link: 5:2 / IF Exercise Thread3

HIIT is especially food for shifting fat around the waist and also boosting fitness rapidly.
If you aren't specifically an "apple" shape, then you can help weight loss by burning calories with any exercise, including medium pace long runs or swims.
Just don't eat more to reward yourself

HIIT is especially good < maybe ipad is hungry ... >

So yesterday ended up as a nfd day and I will have 2nd FD on Sunday, I like the flexibility of this WOL 😀 well done on the svs, enjoy the weekend

Signing in. I am not fat and have never dieted before BUT as I get older it is harder to maintain my natural weight and my waist and Tum are starting to get much thicker. DH has a big birthday in a 7 weeks so would like to have lost a little by then so I look fab for that. First FD was fine, struggling a bit today. I normally have a big breakfast so
Maybe I should weight my calories there. Any other advice? I'm very tall (6ft) so 600 calories is where I am aiming.

I found that having breakfast didn't work for me toomany - it sort of got my body into wanting food mode .so I ended up pushing the first meal of the day back, bit by bit, making the fasting hours longer and getting the health benefits from that. It took a while to get into the swing of it - hard boiled eggs were my friend for staving off rumbles

If you are a real breakfast person, and that works best for you, then eggs are very good for making you feel fuller for longer...... We each have to find the way of doing this that is sustainable long term - because it is a long term way of keeping our weight stable and in a healthy range - it's not a diet. The friends I have who have thought like that are the ones who've put it back on again. For me, now, balancing out the inevitable peaks and troughs of social life / eating /drinking is totally stress free because nothing is forbidden, I just adjust accordingly.

Sadly, as we age our bodies begin to do strange things like hang on to weight in places that they never used to