5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Mazzle

Well done Mazzle
FD here. Don't feel like eating anyway. In a horrible mood so forgive me if I don't report in. Was planning on a run today, but in too much pain atm.
Good luck everyone

Morning all. Second of three planned FDs this week. Trying to pull back last week which did not go to plan! Good luck to all!

Well done on the Sv's and nsv's.

I had to abandon FD yesterday, was just too hungry and tired. So now on a mini FD today and proper one tomorrow.

Just eaten a granola activia yoghurt with a knife and fork in the car park (supermarket did not believe in takeaway spoons). It is a glamorous life i lead, my mother would be mortified if she knew.

Morning all

Well done mazzle
Successful NFD yesterday, a couple of hundred cals under TDEE too second FD today as no other day i can fit it in this week... got a relatively busy day so it should be fine

Hope everyone has a good day

Morning all

Congrats on the jeans NSV, Mazzle That was quick
Well done on basically maintaining over 3 weeks hols, Fusspot and congrats on your 50th
You've seen the benefits of no snacking for weight management.

Sounds like you achieved a decent calorie deficit, pinkpanther so that's a win

Welcome back, imbroglio, Jangles
Fasting and cutting back on the sugary treats should help your waist and stabilise energy levels

Hewl Try roughly planning 3-4 reasonably nourishing meals for your NFD the day before.
Then stick to no snacking or nibbling - even "healthy" snacks raise insulin & hinder fat-burning overall for the day. They also tend to increase hunger and lead to less healthy snacks.

Granny Sounds like it was too long a fasting period for you to start exercise, because your glycogen stores were empty.
Your body was forced to burn fuel from fat stores, which is much more difficult on steady state medium intensity exercise like running - easier for say 50 mins HIIT or lifting, but might still reduce performance and leave you weak.

The morning after an FD, you probably need a light meal with protein at least an hour before running.
e.g. small porridge with almond milk, or pnut butter / boiled egg on 1slice toast or Greek yoghurt & berries.
The classic banana works for some, not all folk and you'd need protein when you return.

Fasted training can burn a lot of fat, but I suggest doing it under easier circumstances:

• The morning of the FD
• Any FD or NFD evening, with supper already prepared so you eat within 15 mins
• The morning of any NFD not following an FD Also, have a double espresso 10 mins before training, to make fat stores more available for fuel.

Also, have a double espresso 10 mins before training, to make fat stores more available for fuel.

I always do this. Its the only thing that gets me round my 5k slog.

Hi everyone!

I've just completed my first week on 5:2. Today's weight on my brand new scales was 12.10. On my old scales last week I was 12.12 so that shows a loss of two pounds. I feel like I've lost more...I fell trimmer but I suppose a different scales can throw up different results so I'm happy. Onwards and downwards!

Just need to confirm something......on my NFD's should I eat at the TDEE Mfp gives me for my current weight (to maintain current weight) or should I enter in a required weight loss on Mfp and eat that amount of cals?

Mfp gives my TDEE as 1890 to lose 0 pounds per week - I am 5'7, 12.10 stone, female age 40.

Thanks a mill
2

Welcome and congrats on your SV, 2stone
Many people find they are "smaller" that they expect for the weight on 5:2. This is because Intermittent Fasting retains muscle, so only loses pure fat plus some water. This makes more difference to shape & wellbeing than you think.

You should aim to eat around current TDEE.
mfp isn't set up for 5:2, just for daily calorie reduction. Some other 5:2ers can maybe say how they reset mfp.

If you wish to speed up loss and also train yourself to eat for maintenance, you can optionally eat the TDEE of your goal weight on a few NFDs per week. You could alternatively eat to sedentary TDEE and not eat back exercise calories on those days.
Keep at last one NFD whee you eat your full TDEE.
Never eat back exercise cals on FDs - it refuces the fasting benefits obtained by time without calorie intake.

So your TDEE to maintain current weight is currently 1900, your standard NFD target

Try here 2stone for tdee-, mfp gives a bit higher. This one is on the op if the link fails.

tdeecalculator.net

Well done mazzle and congrats to 2stone too

Thanks guys!

I used that calculator annielostit and it gives me a TDEE of 1812 so a little less!!

I think I will stick with 1812 for the moment and then incorporate a few days of 'goal weight TDEE'.

I started the first day of my half marathon training today. I ran 5km at a very slow pace and was delighted to finish. I won't be eating back the cals (my garmin over-estimates anyway and gave me 382) but I would love to.

Am I the only one who finds NFD's as hard as FD's or is that because I'm a newbie!

Chat soon......

I am very much with you on the NFD's 2stone. I find them much tougher. I can accept the FD calories but am rebellious of being strict on NFD's.

Am struggling on mini FD too today. I am thinking this week may be a write off and will have to be super good next week. Looks like i will finish the day on 964 if i am strong and good.

Hi all,
nfd can be hard 2stone because we're trying to eat what we're supposed to as what we want. Pizza is great but don't get much for your Calories. you argue with yourself to justify it . I only have pizza on holiday (once per holiday) as I'd eat one as big as a bin lid that's no kidding. FD seem easy in comparison.
Was going to have fd#2 today but got up hungry.1450 tdee- yesterday didn't refill the tanks after Monday FD. Had to eat before gym WO. Got filling dinner planned, braised beef cheeks, root mash & greens - yummy!!.
Hope everyoneis having a good Wednesday.x

Annie's right:
TDEE is by definition what we should be eating for our age, height, weight, activity level.
The reason almost everyone gained the weight is that they were eating / drinking more than their body could burn - still eating like a labrador teenager ?

If TDEE is tough, remember that your TDEE drops as you lose weight, unless you really boost exercise.

e.g. for a woman 5'4", age 35, her sedentary TDEE

• starting at 15 stone is nearly 2000
• at 13 stone drops to 1800
• at goal of say 9 stone is 1500 - a total drop of 500 cals fewer that she can eat per day

So, eating within TDEE on NFDs trains you how to eat for maintenance, which is one of the forgotten advantages of 5:2 compared to standard diets with a daily calorie reduction

Also, your TDEE drops with age.
If that 5'4" woman weighed 15 stone at age 20, her sedentary TDEE was 2050, but would be only 1800 at age 60.
If she was 9 stone all her adult life, her TDEE would drop from 1600 aged 20 to 1350 at age 60
Note she only has 1600 even at age 20 - another reason to make exercise a lifelong habit and potentially raise your TDEE a few hundred

1/2 off in my first 5:2 week . Not a massive amount but still in the right direction.

1/2 off in my first 5:2 week . Not a massive amount but still in the right direction.

I tried to explain the tdee- thing to my mother (74yrs old & 25 yrs in the head) who thinks that 1lb of butter a week is OK. Working on the basic calculation that it's 3500 Cal's per lb of butter (10g is approx 70) plus 1.5 bottles of wine, can't understand why she puts on weigh😏. It's a major eye opener when it's written down. My mum should live on lettuce to compensate.
Good effort mrstumble, take your time.😊

FD kitchen closed at 550 . I was under and had a Greek yogurt. I massively underestimated the calorie content until I'd eaten it. The annoying thing is I'd only really had it to boost my days food up!!'

Well done to 2stone. With regard to the conversation regarding NFD/TDEE I'm not struggling as much as I thought I would. I have realised quite quickly that my major problem was snacking and lunching on very carb heavy foods. Replacing the sandwiches for soups & salads has been easier and tastier than I thought. Snacks which were my brain not my tummy are replaced with water (if desperate tea) or exercise (can't eat when you're bouncing around)!! DH has commented that my skin is amazing already!!! Proves what shit I was putting in my poor body. I'm so glad I stumbled upon this thread, such good advice, great support and inspiration
When do I do my first weigh in/measure in?

Had my usual Wednesday weigh in today and am down 1.5lbs after one fast day. Fasting again tomorrow.

Kitchen closed on FD two. I always find this one hard and today I think I was about 600cals if not 650. Going to try not to pig out on carbs and have at least one hunger gap tomorrow!!

Congrats on your SVs, MrsTumble, Thumbcat

Well done on kicking the snack habit, Rick That's a very important lifestyle NSV

• Research (ref. Science sedtion at the bottom of the OP) has shown that benefits to insukin metabolism from reducing the number of "eating ovcasions" per day i.e. "no snacking" is a healthier WOE for most folk.

The benefit is often seen around your waist and the appearance of your skin.

weigh-in: for comsistency, I recommend weekly, naked the morning after the 2nd FD, before you eat ir drink, but after the loo.
Keep scales in the same place on a hard surface, not carpet

Hewl I recommend, in your case, that you always deliberately aim for 650 cals on your 2nd FD, to relieve the stress - always a good thing for weight loss. It probably makes it more sustainable longterm for you as well.
This is logical, because I recommend 650 cals for those who do a b2b (back2back FDs) because this was the protocol for the successful 5:2 b2b human studies by Dr Michelle Harvey.