5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[AndieNZ]

stripeyzebra

I hear you about the coil. Is it a MIrena coil you have? Thinking of having mine taken out. The side effects match some of the symptoms I have been experiencing such as low mood, tiredness and also weight gain. I'm also all over the place in terms of whether I have a monthly or not. I need to do some more research and speak to my GP.

[stripeyzebra32]

Andie yes I have the merina, had it for 3 years switched from the awful copper coil. I went to my GP and demanded the old out but they wernt going to do it without another form of contraception so I chose this but know nothing about it.

Lost weight last year and no issues at all with it.

This time I don't know what is going on. I just hope it sorts itself out.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Sorry to bother everyone (the thread is quiet) but does anyone know/have experience of fasting loading cholesterol? Mine has just been tested and come out rather high...

[TaIkinPeace]

Hi Cecile
Fasting mixed with a good healthy diet that includes lots of micronutrients and good fats should help.
You need to have gaps between your eating sessions to let your digestion "hoover into the corners"
and within a few months the numbers should stabilise.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Thanks TiP. Would good fats be olive oil, salmon and so on?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Cecile When you lose weight on any diet this can happen, because you are burning fat.
However, it may be more noticeable on 5:2 simply because the weight lost is pure fat (and water) not muscle.
Even if the scales don't move a lot, you are burning fat if your clothes are looser.

When you burn fat, it is first you are mobilized as fatty acids and triglycerides into the bloodstream.
It probably takes at least a month at stable weight, say when you have reached goal, or after a long holiday off-diet, before these tramsient effects of fat loss disappear.

A good explanation here about possible transient effects on cholesterol, tryglycerides, HDL, LDL, BP etc (although this doctor is referring to his pet wheat-free diet, it holds for any method that burns fat):

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/06/i-lost-weight-and-my-cholesterol-went-up/

[BigChocFrenzy]

Most people don't have these effects to any noticeable degree, but a small % of people do.

What I suggest if you are one of the unlucky ones:

• (Especially if you are low carbing), eat a normal amount of fat, but don't go for the high fat extremes, e.g. don't do "bulletproof" coffee
  Low carbers may also need to raise net carbs (complex ones, not junk) to above 100g per day
  
• A few days per week, swap meat dishes to fish, e.g. salmon instead of beef or pork
  
• Swap to olive oil for cooking, instead of butter or lard
  
• For a snack, have nuts instead of cheese, e.g. pnut butter on toast instead of toasted cheese sarnies.

[BigChocFrenzy]

From studies, for most people, HDL tends to go up and triglycerides down, while LDL & total cholesterol tend to stay the same. LDL particle size tends to increase and LDL particle number tends to go down.
So, pretty positive.
However, that small subset of people - usually, but not always low carbers - may have increased LDL and hence total cholesterol.

[CeciledeVolanges]

This is all very interesting! (apart from bulletproof coffee, I think I'm fine without butter in mine) I do learn a lot on these threads. Luckily I'm a pescetarian, so I don't eat much pork and beef to start with. Nor have I braved the scales yet! But TiP what you said rings a bell too because I'm an awful grazer.

[TaIkinPeace]

cecile
if you can switch back from "grazing" to two or three meals per day with nothing at all in between
that might be the trick

[EagleRay]

Evening all! Yesterday was my usual second FD of the week, but I decided to skip it as had lost so much weight (went from 86.1kg on 5 Aug to 83.7 on 11 Aug). Was doing ok in terms of TDEE until DP comes home and starts doing his usual thing of trying to get me to eat cheap rubbish carbs. I said no several times, and then slightly lost the plot around midnight and had a bit of a binge - one yoghurt, 2 malt loaf bars and then 2 scones with butter and jam! Bit rubbish really but I did enjoy them

So back on it today with a FD - there was some sabotage this afternoon when DP bought a box of 4 cornettos while we were out and I had one, but I've still come in at around 850 cals for the day.

DP took a photo of me this afternoon on a carousel with DD and it was pretty awful seeing how others see me, but I kind of feel ok about it as my weight is on the way down and it feels within my control.

Interesting info re scales - mine are quite old now (they think I'm 35!) and seem a bit reluctant to tell you what you really weigh as very frequently give you the day before's weight.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Morning all. I'm having a Saturday FD. Anyone else ?

Well done on your SV, Eagle
Why does your DP keep pushing cheap junk ? If he wants to feed you, he should go for nutritious food to support your BFing and wellbeing - junk worsens mood swings

[EagleRay]

BC DP eats what he likes as he does so much exercise and finds it hard to relate to anyone's weight loss struggles.

NSV here today! We went to a lido so had to endure another parade in swimwear but turned out to be nearly empty as the water isn't heated! Not only did I brave the cold water but I swam 20 lengths- more than I've ever done in my life! not at all motivated by the sight of DP struggling with baby and toddler at the poolside

And, I'm a whole half stone lighter than our last lido trip nearly a month ago

[BigChocFrenzy]

Great swim, Eagle 
Re your DP: eating carby / sugary junk is not good for longterm health, regardless of whether it shows up on the scales.
Men who exercise a lot can often find it easy to manage their weight - rarely as easy for women exercisers past age 35.

[EagleRay]

For a scientist he can be incredibly stupid at times.

We're off to the beach tomorrow - it's a 2 hour drive and wants to take his bike so that he can cycle home...

[Clearskies99]

Morning all! Back from fantastic holiday, was soooooo good to be doing all the active outdoor stuff I usually do but noticing again and again the benefits of being so much fitter and lighter than last summer hols- more energy, more stamina, more flexibility and no joint pain at all.... Yayy!

Week 1 very healthy eating and even fasted, week 2 indulged a bit more so am straight back to a FD today while I sort, wash and tidy away family's small mountain of camping kit. Wash no 4 currently on!

Will catch up on everyone's news later.... did see Eagle your NSV of big swim well done . Even if still overweight it feels so different, doesn't it, that we are losing weight, getting healthier and have found a WOE that feels sustainable long term. I echo BCF's words - is there a way to talk to your partner about how much it means to you to be getting your health back and asking for him to support not sabotage what you are doing?

Have a good day everyone

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome back, clear Sounds like your vacation was perfect for recharging physicl & mental energy banks.
You've lots of lifestyle NSVs and you sound very positive
Well done for getting right back into the 5:2 swing

I've just finished my usual Sunday fasted 2 hrs circuits & lifts, plus cooldown walk outside. I spend most of Sunday at the gym, relaxing & Kindling after training
I'm enjoying a veggy protein shake (incl garlic cloves !) and a flaxmeal, walnut & goji muffin

Phew, so hot (Germany) I'm not really hungry, so I'm making this a BSD 5:2 week, with this weekend a b2b of 800 cals each, followed by 5 low carb days based on fish, Med veg & salad.
Fits in nicely, because the gym has their big summer barbecue next Saturday, so I'll just have a Sunday FD then.

[TaIkinPeace]

Eagleray
You need to educate your DH about the heath threats to TOFI people
which is exactly what Michael Mosely was when he started his 5:2 journey.
He was never overweight - nor was his Dad who died of heart disease in his 50's
and then MM discovered the pattern

My BiL is a TOFI : he exercise lots but eats shit. Around the age of 55 it will likely kill him suddenly

I have a dear friend who is a model and she can tell at a glance who is thin and healthy and thin and ill (she works for Storm and does the Fashion weeks, I wish she was bullshitting)

Your DH needs to get his head and his arse in gear if he wants to be active in 30 years time

[stripeyzebra32]

Not had a great week this week I will be honest.

I am doing my 3rd fast day of the week to make up for all the extra cals consumed. Will go shopping tomorrow and go back to more protein less carbs and less crap.

My h is a feeder and keeps bringing me junk food back from work. I have been very good all week saying no and throwing it out but he bought my utter favourite cake home on thurs and I couldn't resist. So Thursday was a bad day and yesterday was awful all you can eat buffet and consumed a lot of fried food. But I went out with the intention to enjoy myself but I would fast today. I've done this a few times and not only has it worked well it does relive the guilt.

Please don't tell me off BCF for my extra fast day.

I will do better next week. I promise.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hey, doesn't sound that bad a week, Stripey Don't beat yourself up.
You usually eat pretty low on NFDs, so you can afford a week with 2 relaxed days.

[BigChocFrenzy]

I very rarely have "junk" now, but I'll occasionally have a special tarte flombe form my fav restaurant.
I don't worry about fried food - I freqently eat at a fantastic Mediteranean fish restaurant that pan fries big portions < dribble > of the most delicious fish; the salmon is just divine, fantastic seasoning too.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Morning all. Good luck to the Monday fasters
Another sunny Monday here. I'm looking forward to my lunchtime walk.
We have massage chairs to enjoy as well, great after a hard Sunday's gym. No luxury spared

[jingscrivvens]

Morning!

Completed 1st week of my kick up the bum and did not too bad. No booze, 2L water everyday, no eating above TDEE and no sugar in tea (not minding stevia now). I did have a snack on Sat and Sun but not the rest of the week and think I swapped all white bread and rice for brown equivalents. Have to say being honest with MFP as much as it is a bit time consuming does show you where you are going crazy. I am a carb fiend it seems!

Hoping weigh in on Wed shows some results.

FD today, popcorn and yogurt for lunch with courgette bolognese for tea. The sun's shining here, if you can get out and enjoy it please do!

[stripeyzebra32]

BCF I don't know my week apart from my fast days was pretty bad. Started slipping back into bad habits but the beauty with this is you can pull it back and also loose more where in the past if I'm not dieting I'm gaining as I didn't do anything to pull it back.

Despite a greedy week from me I'm now - 1.2lbs so big smiles from me today.

Is anyone else finding with the 2 days fasting there food bill has gone down quite a lot? I'm not buying as much and the food seems to be lasting longer too.

[CeciledeVolanges]

jing also a carb fiend here. And one of my reasons for fasting is to spend less money (both now, and later on when I get long term health problems. I had an older family member very ill with heart issues and the worries about how to pay for his care were just constant).
Due to social events and other factors this week I'm going to attempt a back to back Wednesday/Thursday fast - turning down a free meal on my current wage (I've just changed jobs and had a 1/3 pay cut) is beyond my self control, but I can't count calories accurately then, so I am going to move the fast days. Good luck all Monday fasters!