5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[grannygrins]

MrsTumble are you using MFP? I'm planning on logging my food for the rest of the month so I can get back into good habits - it should also help me to make better food choices. It's a bit time consuming at first and a bit of a faff weighing everything, but for me it's a very useful tool.

Welcome back Mazzle and congratulations on baby Mazzle. My weight gain is not too bad, but the whole lot has dumped itself round what was formerly my waist, and which now resembles the donuts which helped to create it. So, I'm in a healthy weight category but with a very unhealthy waist to height ratio.

I have my second FD tomorrow. I normally eat only one meal, but am out until around 10.00 p.m. so may see how best to split my calories into two smaller meals.

[Mrstumbletap]

Thanks bit choc, that was kind of two meals as I had the ryvita just after lunch and then the soup and chilli together as my dinner, weird mix I know but wasn't sure if I would like the soup as it was the first time I made it. So I was thinking if I don't like it I will have a bigger portion of chilli, if I do I will have a small portion of soup and a small portion of chilli iyswim.

The stoooopid cereal bar was about 10 minutes after dinner. Should have had water or tea or something, just desperately wanted something sweet. grr annoyed at myself.

[Mrstumbletap]

Bigchoc** i mean

[Mrstumbletap]

Hi grannygrins yes use MFP have for a couple of years now, but I find it's still hard to calculate a meal like a chilli when you have to calculate the meat, the peppers, the onions, 6 sprays of fry light etc but you only had a 1/3 of a portion that was half a pack of 750gram mince, my head boggles.

I also find sometimes you type something simple on there like tea with skimmed milk and there are 20 different peoples entry, some say 20cals, some say 17cals, some say 25cals and you have to just pick one which I find hard as which one is right?

[Clearskies99]

Morning all. Checking in for Thursday FD. Done my fasted walk first thing and tried my first 5 min Fat Blast BCF thanks for tip. - got me out of breath so felt good!

[annielostit]

Morning #2 FD here. Checked in for a good one, she says. Done my hiit & mile after to cool off. Still have a STS scales but my shoulders looked good after press ups today( self praise is no recommendation ).
All have a good one people and be strong fellow fasters.😉

[Mooey89]

Morning Thursday Fasters - FD here too.
Checked my weight this morning (don't normally weigh until Sat) and looks like a gain which is annoying... Going to have a strong FD and mini fast tomorrow to try and pull it back for sat!!

[bugsyburge]

I find I often want 'something else' after my tea so I've taken to having a hot water with a slice of lemon....we have an on the stove kettle so water takes a while to boil and I find that by the time I've boiled the water and then let it cool and drunk it,I can normally see past having something else and that has worked successfully for me...could be worth a try mrs.

Weighed in this morning at exactly 10.3 so 0.8 down...official weekly weigh in isn't until Saturday morning so hopefully it will continue in a downwards direction although I like to weigh in after each fast to keep me motivated for a NFD.

I'm just tucking into my seeded toast with PB and half a banana....I've been looking forward to it since about 8pm last night!! Lunch today will be wholemeal pitta with tuna, avocado, cucumber and spinach. Haven't quite decided on tea

[gardengirl88]

Checking in.

Welcome to joiners! The more the merrier the motivation!

[ApricotExpat]

Hi all,

Can I ask if there is a consensus of opinion as to whether 16:8 or 5:2/4:3 works better (in terms of speedy weight loss)?

[Thedeepbluesea]

Feeling a little disappointed in myself this morning. Was very naughty on my NFD yesterday. But still this morning is FD again and i have already been for my run. My legs are certainly complaining about it.

Do you think it is acceptable to have 4 meals a day? I simply cant get from lunch to dinner without eating. The longer a leave it before giving in the greater and longer the almighty binge lasts. But if i just accept i must eat a fourth time maybe i could make it work. Surely better to accept an extra 200 cals than try to control snacking and end up consuming 800 because you thought sod it ive failed again?

[Thedeepbluesea]

I am not normally this miserable and grumpy, i promise. Im normally the eternal laid back optimist.

[hewl]

I find the second fast day immeasurably harder than the first. I have a headache today despite drinking almost all of my 1.5l bottle of water. I've had two coffees and could really do with sitting down with a biscuit

[bugsyburge]

deepblue I'd say have the fourth meal if it will help you...maybe have a couple less mouthfuls of food at lunch and tea to try to balance it out??? I think as long as you eat something nutritious then there is no harm in it, just don't reach for a bar of chocolate or bag of crisps to tide you over!!

People here tend to do 16:8/14:10 on NFD plus 2 fast days. 3 fast days will obviously increase the calorie deficit and therefore speed up weight loss but it can become a bit of a chore ( speaking from experience!!) and as bcf says....if you do 5:2 and start to plateau then you can throw in some 4:3 to kickstart weight loss again, if you are already doing 4:3 then you haven't really got anywhere to go from there

[bugsyburge]

Second para aimed at apricot.... On the app so couldn't go back to check name!!

[OohMrDarcy]

Morning all,

FD yesterday was a resounding success. Closed the kitchen on 462 cals and about 3 litres of water. Scales heading back in the right direction this morning - huzzah!

Now I've started the water again I almost can't stop it which is obviously a good thing - been glugging lots today!

[Clearskies99]

deepblue I'd say go for a 4th meal and make it a highly nutritious 'snack' with good protein, eg boiled egg plus 1 slice wholemeal bread. In general more protein, veg and 'good' fats may help reduce urge to binge, and also avoiding sugar and refined carbs

hewl have you tried a teaspoon of marmite as well as lots of water - may help ( B vits, salt and other rminerals). A tip from BCF that helps me loads on FDs if I feel hungry/wobbly in any way between meals.

SV bugsy -Yay!! It all adds up!

Mooey remember all the things that can make scales vary, might not be actual weight gain.

Apricot 4:3 is much harder (and therefore risk of backfiring into a binge).

[Clearskies99]

Xposted with you MrD . Scales going in right direction here too

[Thedeepbluesea]

Thanks clear and bugsy i going to go with the fourth meal and moderate exercise tdee to accommodate it. I know this is cheating but i just cannot realistically stick to 1600 cals at the minute especially after starving myself thr day before. If slower weight loss so be it. At least it will be more sustainable.

I am very impressed with all you have accomplished clear and how positive you are with it.

Well done on FD mrD

I fancy a biscuit too hewl In fact i could probably eat the whole pack right now and i dont even eat biscuits!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on the exercise, Annie, Clear

Blue Absolutely have 4 meals if you wish. I deliberately suggest 2-4 meals on NFDs, i.e. a range because people have different insulin metabolisms and lifestyles etc.

What is important for nearly everyone is not to snack between those meals - snacks keep insulin raised, which tends to slow the fat-burning and increase hunger.
Your 4th meal may be much smaller than the others - a minimeal - but should still have protein & veg / fruit, plus optionally fat / carbs. So, not cake, biscuits, choc etc but a meal

Apricot Most people won't lose on 16:8 unless they also have a weekly calorie deficit. So, if you do 16:8, you'd need to average say TDEE-430 to get the classic 3000 deficit for the week.

As bugsy said, I recommend reserving 4:3 for a plateau, which may happen every few months. It is also useful to boost loss if you have a special occasion or vacation in say a month.
5:2 is more sustainable longterm, because with 4:3 (or ADF) you are fasting nearly half the days and it can feel very stressful and "diety"
In fact, 4:3 often isn't faster than 5:2, because many people struggle not to eat more on NFDs, or they binge.

[BigChocFrenzy]

hewl Re your FD2 problems:

• Do you have only one NFD between the FDs ? That can be tough for some; a 2 NFD gap would make FD2 easier.
  
  
• The NFD before an FD can affect how you feel on the FD. Try this:
  . After 3 pm, no alcohol, fruit juice or sugary / carby junk
  . Avoid a huge supper. Instead, plenty of protein & veg, moderate portion of complex carbs, to finish 2-3 hrs before bed. No more than one portion of fruit with supper and try to avoid cake, biscuits etc.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hewl Have a teasp of Marmite or a tbsp of unsweetened soy sauce on it own (each is 10 cals)
They replenish lost salt & minerals that can occur on an FD and cause headaches or feeling weak.

[Greengager]

Hello feeling guilty about my non FD yesterday which was good apart form when something went horribly wrong at work and I stress ate four biscuits whilst sorting it out. Woops! Today is a FD I've developed a headache though so I just had a biggish lunch - bowl of celery cucumber carrots and a boiled egg so I can take some painkillers which you shouldn't do on an empty stomach. Will see how the days goes. Have ginger beer at the ready but won't go all out to restrict calories today. Hope everyone else has a good day!

[doineedhelp]

hello, checking in on the new thread, lots of newbies - welcome!

FD here today, i'm finding it hard to stick 5:2 with the weather being so nice too much temptation of cold lager / wine but hoping to stick to it today! anyone else struggle with the warmer weather? My DH goes off food completely when its hot, i wish i could!

Anyway, subway turkey salad eaten inhaled! so just water and a coffee until chicken or prawn stir fry for dinner

Good luck everyone else

[HowardsEnd]

Hello all, am experimenting with the 5/2 diet as a way of slightly re-jigging eating patterns and habits - DH and I are fairly slim (DH is a beanpole) but I never entirely lost the baby weight, and have gained some further weight since finally stopping BF.
So, though I'd definitely like to lose the extra tummy fat I've got, my main interest in this is health-related. Given this:

• Am I better fasting totally for a whole day/week, or partially (500ish cal) for 2?
  
• Are there any constraints on non-fasting days? So far I've certainly found myself to be hungry on them - and hunger is a feeling I'd rather lost sight of.
  
• If I do go for the partial fast, then is it better to eat one larger small meals, rather than several tiny ones? And what can I do about my coffee habit?? (I hate black coffee...)