5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

FD done... Kitchen closed at 591 cals, just having options hot choc and watching the footie 😊

Kitchen closing at 527. Just tipped it over with an options hot choc. Trying to do 3 FDs this week to make up for last week!

FD done and dusted here. So good not to have to think about food on FDs, just have my set staples and add in carbs for the family for the evening meal.

Welcome all newcomers and returners to persis great to hear you're maintaining successfully, will join you there one day!!

I'm feeling a bit hungry this evening but won't be having anything else. It's so much easier to have willpower when it's just for one day at a time. I think after this week I'm going to stock up on some ready meals and skinny soups to make it easier.

Thanks Bigchoc

For now im going to try 2 x mini-fast days and see how it goes. Got the feeling if I don't take it easy, I won't be able to keep to it. Hopefully after a few weeks I can work up to 3 x mini fast days. But at this moment I'm not too ambitious; there's still some podge round the tummy and waist but my legs and arms have slimmed down a lot thanks to the swimming. BMI is about 23 atm, but I think the extra muscle is contributing .. and it's still within Healthy.

BigChoc the menopause can influence weight loss/gain quite a bit can't it?

Is it normal to have splatty poos after FDs?

Yes it's amazing Muzzle, isn't it? Now after 2 NFD it's not as flat as it was straight after FD but still flatter then before the FD.

Had around 1000 calories today, FD tomorrow. Will try and drink lots of water. Planning on skipping breakfast and having lunch as late as possible. Will have egg/chicken breast meat salad. Hope it will be easier than FD1!

Pretty good BC.

DH is away working, so by the time I got 2 kids and 1 baby to bed, it was 9pm.

There's a bad case of the Mother Hubbards here, so settled for 5 Krisprolls, 2 Dairylea triangles, 1 apple & 1 orange. (strange FD menu I know!)

Weigh day for me tomorrow and if my trousers are anything to go by, it'll be a successful first week!

Happy to say successful FD today - much easier than last Thursday which was quite a relief. Came in at 500 cals exactly.

Also, waist down by 1" (though still another 3" to go before I'm officially not fat on the inside) and 1.5kg down on the week. Probably mostly water, but must be a few grams of fat gone.

Evening all!

Lovely to see so many new posters - and returners, as well. Persis, great to hear how well 5:2 has worked for you1

Congratulations, Maz! How nice to hear of your LO. You'll soon get back into the swing of things, I'm sure.

I've a couple of alcohol related NSVs to report:
On Saturday I mowed the lawn, finishing about 5.30. Came in and helped myself to a glass of chilled ginger beer and water (it's too sweet otherwise). I'd almost drunk it and dinner was nearly ready when I realised - it's the weekend, and I'm allowed alcohol! So I quickly had 3/4 of a pint, then had a small glass of wine with my dinner.

On the Sunday, once again I had a soft drink and didn't even think about beer. I have to tell you, folks, this is breaking the habits of a lifetime!

However, late on Sunday evening, I noticed there was still a 1/4 of a pint left in the bottle, which I forced down me. Well, it wouldn't have lasted until next weekend, now would it? It would have gone off.

So, I'm thinking it's entirely possible that, at some stage, I could give up regular drinking altogether and just drink on special occasions!

This is all down to the 2:5 regime I began several months ago. Highly recommended for breaking longterm habits!

Posted too soon - meant to say, good luck, Beelishy! I'm rooting for you!

Hope that 5:2 works as well for you as it has done for so many others!

Well done Monday fasters
Congrats on your inches NSV, Granny

Olive No, but a few folk find their stomach needs a couple of weeks or more, to adjust to fasting.
What can help is to avoid fruit on FDs, because it is acidic and can aggravate an empty tum
Drink plenty of water, base meals on protein and lots of veg; your tum should adjust

Hi bcf, wondered if you knew why, but I've noticed whenever I lose weight, my waist becomes more defined first. I still tend to have my muffin top. Do you know what muffin top specifically relates to?

SeaEagle Yes, meno and the several years leading up to it tend to increase bodyfat and change your shape. It usually requires lifestyle changes to correct this and maintain a fit bod.
Those who have always eaten what they want like a teenager will probably find this now piles on weight.

MENOPAUSE, Weight Gain & Control

Too much circulating insulin and cortisol (the "stress" hormone) increases fat storage.
Estrogen is a hormone that counteracts insulin and cortisol.
Progesterone counterracts cortisol only.
Younger women have high levels of these 2 hormones; hence weight control is easier.

At menopause, when both hormones drop drastically, a woman typically:

1. has slower metabolism due to much lower estrogen.
   Her rl TDEE drops and averages 200-400 below calculated value.
   ==> So you may need to lower your calorie intake to a new TDEE.

2. is more sensitive to simple carbs, even fruit, due to increased insulin resistance.
   Fat is likely to be added around abdomen, where it increases health risks.
   ==> So, replace white carbs by complex ones.
   ==> You may need to reduce even these carb portions, e.g. bread to 2 wholegrain slices / 1 roll daily, pasta or rice to a fist-sized portion daily.
   ==> Swap chips and mash to baked or boiled potato
   ==> Reduce fruit to max 2 portions daily.
   ==> Boost non-starchy veg (not the spuds)

==> Drastically reduce junk food, especially sweet junk, even home-cooked baking
==> Cut right down on savoury carbs too e.g. pizza, crisps etc
Swap deep-pan pizza for thin crust and swap a couple of the slices for salad

3. is more likely to have thyroid imbalance - low estrogen can slow thyroid function.
   Anyone with a previously sluggish thyroid (women are more prone to this) will likely find pre-menopause worsens this considerably.
   ==> Consult your GP if you suspect thyroid issues.

4. Loss of muscle mass, which lowers metabolism and raises health risks.
   Occurs from age 25 for all non-exercisers and accelerates around menopause.
   ==> To retain / build muscle requires weight-bearing exercise, like squats, pressups, lifting. Cardio is NOT sufficient and may even increase muscle loss.

5. is more vulnerable to stress.
   Anyone chronically stressed will have raised cortisol levels, tending to increased fat storage.
   As well as final career surge, caring for elderly parents, teenagers, uni students ...
   ==> plan your day to ensure time for a full night's sleep. If you can't sleep, relaxing in bed with eyes closed is still beneficial.
   ==> make time for yourself during the day too, to relax e.g. listen to music, have a foot or shoulder massage, sauna ....

Good FDs reported, well done all.
Mine was about 700- happy with that, bit going on at the minute. Let's try for a low nfd 😄.

Thanks BCF I've been eating loads of salads and veg too its probably the massive increase in fiber.

FD today hoping its as easy as Saturday.

Sounds good, Annie
More veg & salad is great, Olive Your bod has probably been begging for it. Relax and carry on

Purple If you carry excess fat, it may either be distributed all over - so the muffin top will disappear with the rest, when you lose weight - or it may just be on the muffin top, nowhere else.

If your fat is nearly all muffin top, main causes:

• insulin resistance, usually caused by lack of sleep & too much carby / sugary food

• imbalance in the reproductive hormones, e.g. too little estrogen and too much testosterone, typically caused by PCOS

• congested liver, which is connected to both of the above, or (but not in your case) to high alcohol consumption

• side effects of some prescribed meds

• You are probably too young for perimenopause (?) but during this and meno, estrogen levels drop, which causes body fat to be redistributed from the hips, thighs, and buttocks (where it used to be stored as a fuel reserve for BF) to the midsection.

What to do

• Plan your day to get a full night's sleep every night
• Cut right down on carby & sugary junk food, e.g. pizza, crisps, sweets, cake etc. Swap to complex carbs, sensible portions Boost beans, lentils, veg & protein. Add some nuts, plain yoghurt.
• Keep booze within nhs limits (not relevant to you !)
• Do HIIT e.g. gym circuits class, or add the 5 min Fat Blasts in the 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 OP
• 5:2 and / or daily 16:8

5:2 / IF is good at burning belly fat and most folk find that their abs shrink before the love handles.
My hypothesis is that's because the abs have more muscles there to burn the fat; also maybe the abs fat cells don't have quite as many beta-receptors, which are the most resistant to fat-burning.

So after a slightly naughty weekend i managed to lose a 0.5 lb, which was a most pleasant surprise. Those words i had eigh the scales clearly paid off!

But FD today so am hoping for even more. Although i have a ridiculously stressful day ahead and not eating is highly like to exacerbate it. I will get through this!

Hi all!

Have posted for a couple of weeks due to work and holiday. I had done really well and lost another pound but then had a bad week and three are back on. I think stopping posting meant that I got off track. So back on it now FD today. Having nothing all day except maybe a stock cube with chilli. Tea will be shashouka, finding FD easiest when I have basically the same meal, so either shashouka or turkeybstir fry as I know cals and that they are yummy!
I really want to get to my mini target of 9.10 by the end of June, so I need to crack on with getting NFD under control!

Good luck to any other Tuesday casters!

Had a row with dh this morning and ended up buying an apple turnover and coffee drink from lidl for breakfast. Not the best start to the day (although both were yummy )

So thats 470kcal for breakfast!

Good morning,

FD here today. Which should be easy as I lost my appetite looking at the scales number this morning. I'm back to my original weight! I mean, seriously?

Ok I've been only doing 5:2 for 3 days but thought that after a FD and two 10cal NFD there will be some difference?

*2 1000cal NFD

Checking in for a NFD, just had my PB and wholemeal toast with half a banana and I've had a lovely morning yoga session thanks to the toddler sleeping in an extra hour!!

I'm determined for a good week this week, I keep hovering around 10.3 thanks to having relaxed weekends. I'm hoping that fasting on Saturday this week will help to break this habit because I want to be 9.7