5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

that's very interesting re snacks BigChoc - the food industry has a lot to answer for. DP has a book from the 70's (think he got it from his Dad) which outlines the ways in which the diet industry controls us - must dig it out. It's interesting that this was discussed then, but it seems only now that we're waking up to it!

FastingRocks that's a fantastic loss! My goal weight is fairly similar, but I've got a looong way to go.

Another good day here with MFP. It really is a revelation discovering how much I could and would have eaten had I not been tracking to a limit. I made mostly good choices today - porridge for breakfast with blueberries, then nothing again til 2pm as we were so busy clearing out the garage. Then I had a 2 egg omelette with salad. Dinner was my fave curry but instead of 80g of rice, I had just 40, plus a mountain of green steamed veg. Dessert was a tiny jelly and admittedly I did have a snack around 5pm (malt loaf and 3 brazil nuts) but have still come in under my limit for the day. However, I have only walked 5k steps today so am off now to pound the streets for 40 mins or so. I'm a bit fastidious now about doing my 10k steps and if it's 11pm and they're not done, I leave the house and do them (on the nights when DP is here to be in the house with the kids)

Happy FD for anyone doing it tomorrow!

Thanks Eagle Ray and keep going - you will get there. There was a short piece on BBC breakfast this morning saying that adults underestimate the number of calories they consume - by about a third, which shows the importance of really tracking calories.
BigChoc - I'll take a look at the fat blasts. I have a skipping rope gathering dust in the cupboard. Might be time to dig it out.
It is interesting about snacking, so much seems to be made of eating little and often to keep hunger at bay these days. It definitely has the opposite effect on me!

Morning all! Monday FD for me with the challenge of a sandwich lunch provided at work. I'm having a lot of fun with the body visualiser, though! Good luck to anyone else fasting today and thanks for the information/inspiration everyone :)

Well done fasting!

So many great SV and NSVs happening recently, one day it will be me!

FD today, only had 750ml water so far so better get glugging. I forgot to buy my normal fat free yogurt that I have for lunch so weighed out 50g of full fat greek yog that I bought, was the first I had seen it in Aldi's, a tub that looked like the Face one. Tastes really nice but it doesn't look a lot. Also Aldi didn't have any of my wee berry pockets so have bought a bag of cranberries/raisins and almonds to weigh out for tomorrows FD. Slightly mixing up and hopefully it goes ok.

I'm also starting BigChoc's 4 week boot up the bum from page 11 today to motivate me on my NFDs.

Good luck to all fasters today

Well done to all the weekend fasters.

I'm pleased with how this weekend went treat meal out Friday. I did over eat but I don't seem to at home. Pulled it back the last two days and made good choices.

Monday would be my FD but I'm going to actually go to the gym and I will go this time so will make tomorrow FD.

I have noticed since being on this for 2 days short of a month how much happier I am. That suprises me as day 2 into 5:2 I packed in the fags and haven't had one since and I've not over eaten and compensated for it.

Good luck, Monday fasters

That's brilliant about the fags, Stripey
The best health NSV you could have and you didn't even eat more to compensate. Well done indeed.

Rope skipping is brilliant cor Fat Blasts, FastingRocks

re snacks: The Science section has a couple of research papers debunking the need to eat little & often (it suits a few people though, especially those who tend to under-weight. We all have individuals needs)

Diabetes UK studied overweight people with T2 or at risk; they found that eating 1-2 meals instead of multiple smaller meals lost more weight and gave better insulin control.
This helps explain why people have slightly better results with just 1 meal on FDs
A reasonable compromise for NFDs that is sustainable longterm is eating 2-4 meals per day, never snacking or grazing.

Jing You've already had some lifestyle NSVs, so you are making progress.
It is usually eating back the FD deficit on NFDs that holds people back - mfp is great at training you in portion size for NFDs. This is lpart of the 4-week Boot Camp and you should have a boost doing that.

One thing to watch if the weight is not coming off as you wish: fruit with added sugar or dried, on FDs or NFDs
Raisins are concentrated sugar and cranberries normally have added sugar - very high GI that would spike insulin and hinder fat-burning, also increases hunger.
Check your berry pouches too, to see if there is added sugar.

It's going well :) breakfast duly skipped (and no Coke Zero at 7AM) and step class attended - I'm ready to face the sandwiches. I don't even feel hungry yet, it's great!

Thanks BigChoc that gives me something to consider ditching. Liked the eating of the dried fruit because there was multiple mouthfuls for my calories. I think tomorrow I might tried some air popped popcorn instead along with my greek yog, MFP has 1 cup of popcorn at 31 calories.

Can I ask something else? I don't eat shop bought white bread, but when I make bread at home I make white bread. I always think this is better than shop bought, but is it? I mean I am using white flour, so I am not going to get the benefits of wholegrain but with a longer rise time does that help?

jing I don't have BigChoc's knowledge but I know shop bought bread uses the Chorleywood process which is generally A Bad Thing. So good on you for homebaking :)

fasting, I saw the BBC thing. When you start writing things down you get the realisation that 'one will hurt you' calorie wise. It's just as well we found 5:2 to calm the storm.
Hats off to weekend fasters, only done it once myself😗
Just caved in after 18hours fast with some cauliflower soup. Fish & greens for dinner. Did a 7k walk this morning .

I love reading all the research info from BC, it's so interesting, my mil is t2 - insulin control. She's nearly 80, if I told her 2 meals a day & no snacks she'd think I was trying to finish her off. No concept of whats good for her. Apparently ice cream is OK as her blood sugar is low in the morning???
5:2 must be doing something good for me, I had a health check last week. My heart is 3 years younger and am less than 4% chance of diabetes and 1.7% chance of getting a heart attack in the next 7 years but a few lbs over weight.
Good luck Monday fasters.x

May I share one of my treats? I LOVE ice cream and lollies but they're unthinkable at the moment so instead am making these tiny lollies with my toddler's 'bling' ring lolly mould and orange juice. They're tiny but a real treat

Excellent health NSV there, Annie That's very motivating for you.

Our own B&W is only a few years younger than your aunt and he has 5:2ed for over 3 years - and as we all know, he is the pressup king !

However, a person needs to be in reasonable physical & psychological health before starting 5:2 (check with your doctor if unsure) because IF is based on the principle of "hormesis":
alternating between “extremes” - e.g. feast & fast (5:2 / IF) , intense training & rest (HIIT) - makes the body more resilient.

That's a good idea, Eagle A small mouthful that is a treat

btw, in hot weather, I make protein ice cream in my Cuisinard ice cream maker:

flavoured whey protein shake powder with almond milk and either some Greek yoghurt or a little flavoured flaxoil. I add cinammon & stevia to sweeten. Takes 35 mins for 1 serving, prep time is 10 secs, because no egg.
I have delicious results with pnut butter shake and with maple walnut shake
About 270 cals, so I have it on NFDs with a reasonable main, e.g. salmon salad

I'm considering if I'm sufficiently adventurous to try say broccoli or spinach ice cream - I have unflavoured whey protein powder

Bread

About 80% of UK commercial bread is still produced by the Chorleywood process, which uses wheat flour of lower protein, has lower nutritional value and often various chemical additives.
So, homemade bread is usually better quality than mass-produced. However, small artisan bakeries probably make bread pretty much as healthily as you would do at home.

Jing To make your homemade bread even more nutritious, I recommend you try wholemeal / wholegrain flour.
This increases folate, thiamin, magnesium, vitamin E. You can add a couple of tbsp bran too.
It also has higher fibre, to help release the carbs more slowly, so you stay fuller for longer.

In rl, B&W bakes his own (vegan) bread and teaches people of all ages how to do so. So, he may have pricked up his ears here

I've had 600 calories today. Does that still count?! A very healthy small dinner this evening and a skinny mocha this morning

Would you believe it - TOTM is here again. Again!!! . This the 3rd time since baby was born and she's only 3mo! And that's despite BF and a prolactinoma which should be making TOTM not happen.

Anyway, sorry for TMI - it's just that I'm dealing with v quick cycles of water retention, cravings etc.

Anyway, the good news is that I should be shedding some water in the next few days. Every cloud and all that

Well done, Monday fasters.
Now let's all pamper ourselves with an early night, to increase the fasting benefits

The odd 100 cals doesn't matter, facey especially with the long fast between mini-breakfast & supper.
You've nailed your FD

Eagle You should lose that retained water the first FD after totm has finished.
All those periods so soon after birth explains why you are finding things a bit tough - also it is still v early to be losing weight, so you need to aim for v gradual loss.
Cutting down on added sugar & junk, as you have started doing, should help stabilise mood.

Hey jing! Nice to see another bread maker on here!

I make white bread. I always think this is better than shop bought, but is it? I mean I am using white flour, so I am not going to get the benefits of wholegrain but with a longer rise time does that help?

The thing about making your own bread is that you are controlling the quality of the ingredients - this also applies to machine made bread, of course.

As has been said, the Chorleywood method is not good. The fact I like to tell my students is that, if you're going to put warm bread into a plastic bag, you also need to include mould inhibitor in the ingredients.

Here's Andrew Whitley (he of the Village Bakery) on the subject.

BC's right about the benefits of wholemeal bread - but an all w/m loaf can be a big step for a family used to white bread. Why not make, say, a quarter, or a third, of your flour wholemeal with your next loaf? (Doves organic wholemeal is particularly tasty.) Once your family has become used to it, then you could up it to half and half white and wholemeal, etc.

I don't bother with 2 risings these days - a mate and I once did some tests on how long to leave a dough for a first proving before there was any noticeable difference. We found it wasn't until you left the dough to prove for 4 hours that there was an improvement in flavour. Anything less made no difference.

I include 50g of sesame seeds - sometimes toasted - which gives a lovely added flavour to the loaf.

Here are three methods of making a loaf, on my blog. I use method A, but with 350ml water.

Good luck!

Checking in for my Tuesday FD. Today i will mostly be wrestling cats (it's worming/flea treatment day and they are off to the cattery tomorrow) washing and packing as we are going to Ireland for a week.
Right now I am off to put up the pool for the kids. its not even going to be that warm today.
Wish me luck!

Hi everyone!
Newbie here so thought I'd say hello!

I am so miserable right now, I have gained so much weight through taking meds from January to June. I have put on about 20 pounds, Doesn't sound much but I was already a good stone overweight before I started the meds and also already super sensitive to the fact I knew I needed to lose weight. I've dabbled with every diet under the sun and live breath and sleep diets. The problem is I love my food, have a very bad sweet tooth and I just end up caving in.

I have recently joined mumsnet and read through the 5:2 diet and decided after reading the motivational thread, I am going to do it. I am currently planning when I am going to start. We return from holiday today and I have the rest of the week off with DH. I am torn between starting right away or starting on a new week when I'm back at work next week.

I have dabbled with the diet last year but didn't do so well as I think I was overeating on my NFD. Need to learn from my mistakes and get back in the saddle.
Looking forward to getting this weight off finally!

Morning all.
Hi Andie, good luck in your journey. If your not sure when to start use MFP to see where your over calories pop up. Take a couple of days to plan & think what your going to eat, start drinking water regularly as it helps..

Nfd here waiting for breakfast,, just done a fasted workout for an hour, but am going back later for a date with my hubby, so will do another hour.
Hope everyone has a good Tuesday.😃

Welcome Andie!

I'm a relative newbie too - I started off with one fast day on the first week and then into full 5:2 - you could try that as a compromise?

Good luck :) and the same to all fasters today. Started off my NFD with some scrambled eggs :)

Time to fess up, very bad day yesterday.

I went on a sugar binge and consumed over 2000 cals. Was feeling so sick I then missed out my tea.
Lesson learned banging headache today. Weighed myself this morning to see what damage I've done and surprisingly I have got away with it.

Back on it today with FD today. Good luck to all Tuesday's fasters

Welcome Andie - I'm sure 5:2 and this group will be able to help you! Ive been overweight most of the time for 2 decades now but finally feel like I'm addressing my eating habits!

FD for me here - am currently sat in a beautiful garden cafe drinking an americano then will push the pushchair up the hill to my allotment and do an hour's weeding and pick veg for lunch! I plan to make a frittata and stuff it with marrows courgettes plus any peas that haven't been eaten by pests (slugs and toddler).

I've been logging on MFP for about 4 days now. It's just a coincidence that I've lost 1.5kg in that time, isn't it

Hope all the FDers have a lovely sunshiney day today.