5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Sounds good to up cals, Stripey Also, low fat + low carb is not a good combination.
So, if you are lowish carb, I hope you are getting sufficient fat on NFDs - Fish, avocado, nuts, seeds, olive oil are the classic healthy fat boosts.

I recommend full fat Greek yoghurt, tastes much nicer, imo.

Wrt low fat products: some add fillers & sugar - check ingredients, best to avoid this type.
Others just remove fat, which automatically raises the carb proportion of the food - not necessarily a problem, but reducing fat may reduce taste too, e.g. hard cheese below 20% fat can taste awful.

Beans, lentils, peas are all excellent for insulin control - Mosely recommends these in his BSD (Blood Sugar Diet) low carb diet & maintenance.

I'm sticking pretty much to high fat low carb, not actually doing anything different than when I was low carbing apart from adding a small carb portion. Not even every day as I have been using up my stash of no carb rice and noodles.

Not bought low cal products for ages, it was always done automatically but when I compared the cheese labels when I was low carbing I wondered why I was paying all that extra for it.

The meal replacement products I bought for my FD are actually so nice I've been having a shake daily as there very filling.

Morning all and good luck to anyone fasting before the weekend
I'm off to the gym now for a fasted XCo class before work.

Morning - FD2 completed yesterday and I weigh a while kilo more than I did last week, and last week was a disappointment.

Bit speechless really - clearly I'm doing it wrong, and I can't have funny hormones to account for weight gain in every single week of the month.

It certainly isn't fun BF a small baby through the night and trying to eat sensibly too. But it's no fun being obese either. I'm 45 this month, and a fat 45 too. My hair is falling out and my wardrobe consists solely of stretchy things covered in baby sick.

Have given myself a bit of a slap and off now to make porridge for breakfast. And I will start tracking on mfp - that's not easy as I have so little time but it has to be a priority.

I hope everyone else did better than me this week!

Btw, 3yo DD just told me I look like a princess - she's available for hire if anyone else needs a morale boost!

Eagle - I'm pretty new to this but hope someone will be along shortly who can help.

I just wanted to mention MFP and in my opinion what a good idea it is. I eat a lot of the same meals as I like to play it safe.

Day before yesterday I was on a NFD and my H said can we have a pudding at its been about 4 months since we had one. So I intended to make a fruit based pudding with a simple shop bought crumble topping. I thought as far as puddings go that was a good choice. Wrong
I've read the packet in the past but the calories are per 1/12 of a pack where o would use a packet each.

When I put it in MFP I was horrified to see it was actually 1340 cals for that packet. I ended up just doing myself a small packet.

MFP is a pain to begin with but it rembers your frequently used products.

These blips can be as simple as guesswork. I used to do slimming world and I never lost for a month i was doing everything correct apart from making flapjacks every couple of days eating a few slices daily using condenced milk how bad can milk be right as I was guesstimating. Very bad.

Try using MFP and see how it goes

Eagle Your little DD has the most important opinion of you. Enjoy while it lasts - I just read another thread about how most teenagers can't bear to be seen in public with their parents

OK, you've already taken the most useful decision and gone for mfp.
mfp will give you a reality check about portion size and highlight hidden calorie bombs, e.g. like Stripey's pud.
Also, if you mfp in advance, you can avoid the worst bombs

What to consider

• Decide that for 7 consecutive days you'll mfp everything you eat or drink that isn't plain water.
  This will establish what you are doing, so you can see what can be improved.

• On FDs, are you within 700-1000 cals ? (That's the BF allowance) Do you normally nail both FDs each week ?

• On NFDs, do you average about TDEE ? If you average more, then you are eating back the FD calorie deficit.
  Calculate TDEE with activity level set to sedentary - if you do exercise, set activity level to one below what you think you do.

Tips

• NO snacking - eat meals at least 4 hrs apart if you can, nothing between meals.
  Even "healthy" snacks like fruit raises insulin and hinders fat-burning
  Have any fruit or "treat" as part of a meal.

• To make meals more filling, boost your protein, especially fish, eggs, Greek yoghurt. Also poultry, meat.
  Try to add beans, peas or lentils every day - they help control insulin levels
  Eat masses of veg

• Starchy carbs: check portion size - should be about 80 g dry weight per meal (before cooking) for rice or pasta. Max 2 slices bread
  Go for complex carbs: quinoa, brown/red rice, wholegrain bread, wg pasta

• Try to keep junk carby food within limits even when part of a meal:
  e.g. pizza, crisps, chips, cake, pastries, biscuits, sweets .....
  They are very high cal, e.g. a coffee bar may have 500 cal EACH for muffin or American cookie or latte
  Junk carbs are also high GI, especially sugary ones, so they spike insulin and start cravings spirals.

• Check portion size for creamy or oily sauces & cheese etc on pasta, rice, salad.
  They can be very high cal - e.g. a big creamy salad dressing with croutons could be 400 cals before you've started on the salad

• Drink lots of water - aim for 2l most days

• Try to have at least a short walk outside in decent weather. Good for mood and gets you away from the fridge.

Potatoes: Go for boiled or baked. Sweet pots are especially good.
Avoid mash or deep fried chips

I'm not MFPing but I am calorie counting, (and working out the price of what I eat) and I'm shocked. It is a huge motivator.

Right - definitely back on MFP as of tomorrow! My reasoning for not doing it was that if I was maintaining a certain weight by just stuffing my face then surely 5:2 was going to make a difference, ie the calorie deficit would be easy to come by. I possibly am overeating on NFDs but the total weekly calories must be less than if I wasn't doing it? Anyway, clearly that is not working!

BCF thank you for laying out all the info - I think I'm going to print it out tomorrow. It all makes sense and I think I am doing a lot of it at least most of the time but often I'm so tired I can't remember what I've eaten or if I'm at the end of my tether I can't make the right choices re food. And definitely agree re MFP in advance - I really like planning food as DP stuffs the fridge with junk food and it's so hard to ignore it.

I did have a couple of G&Ts this eve, but they were with slimline tonic and I went out and finished off my 10,000 steps first! And when I walk I always make sure I have a litre bottle of water with me and that I finish the lot before I get home.

In some ways I feel a total failure, but I am tring to give this as much attention as I can, and of course it's a bit of a learning curve returning to 5:2 with the double whammy of post pregnancy body and the perimenopause!

Stripeyzebra - I don't think there are many things more horrid in life than accepting the calorfic values of beloved cakes and desserts!

Eagle it always makes me feel really sad when people say they feel a failure or guilty or bad about food, especially when it is completely accidental like here. It is just food, I'm sure you're a lovely person and eating doesn't hurt anyone. I know the feeling you feel but this just makes me sad about society that we have all these hang-ups about food having some sort of moral value.

Don't beat yourself up, ((({ Eagle }))) You sound very tired and run down.
Perimenopause and meno are tough enough for us all, but you are going through this with a baby and toddler, with the accompanying lack of sleep etc.

We don't do guilt about food or weight on these threads

Cake, booze etc may be nutritionally poor, but they are morally neutral.
Do what you can, pat yourself on the back when it goes well, move on when it doesn't.
Post here whenever you feel down and we'll support you too.

What helps:

• Even if things go off-plan with a binge, don't write off the rest of the day or week.
  Just stop, have a drink of water, clean your teeth - that fresh clean taste really can stop cravings in their tracks.

• Ask your DP to be more supportive and to stack the fridge with nourishing protein & veg, including easy mini-meals like boiled eggs, pnut butter, plain Greek yoghurt, hummus, tsatziki, veg sticks.
  Getting in some wholegrain / wholemeal bread helps reduce the GI of toast

If he must buy junk for himself - and neither you nor your 3-yr-old need that - he should keep it in a separate cupboard or box.

Maybe it's possible for him to take on more of the caring for his DC, while you rebuild your strength and take some Eagle-time for a walk, hairdresser, nails etc

Saturday fast already this week has flown by.
I have been keeping track of measurement but they don't seem to be changing
I know my trousers are fitting better and I wore my long boots the other day as it was so cold and wet and I was able to zip them up a lot further than I could over the winter so obviously my calves are getting smaller.
Oh and my bras feel a bit looser but my bust size hasn't changed so it must be my under bust measurement that has.
I think i have so much to loose that it will be a while before its noticeable to other people.
But I can't imagine eating the way I used to now. I feel full after meals and I'm not rummaging in the cupboard/fridge every time I walk past. Plus drinking all the water has improved my skin no end. I only get the odd totm spot now not a new one every few days like before.

Your not a failure eagle. You haven't quit and you've admitted your issue and that's the first step.

Pick yourself up dust yourself off and Monday is a new week.

I've been there and thought the same. 4 months ago I started Low carbing can honestly say my head wasn't in the right place but set myself a 12 week challenge when I got back from a weekend away. In my head I was smaller than what I was but the photos proved me wrong. 3 weeks from the end of my 12 weeks I wanted to be naughty and this is wear I found the 5:2, I wanted to switch so I could stuff my face 5 days a week. Soon realised maybe that wasn't the best option especially as I was only a few weeks away from my goal.

I did when I reached my 12 week marker but got struck down by a horrendous sickness bug the next day and I will not been doing that again.

Set yourself small goals of it helps a day or a week at a time. You can do it.

Thank you everyone - feeling a bit grim after drinking gin last night (I'm a total lightweight) but today is a new day. Was going to have porridge for breakfast but DP brought me breakfast in bed consisting of toast/jam and fruit with yoghurt so of course I ate it! And have just entered it into MFP and it's over 500 calories . But will adjust accordingly for lunch.

I think what's horrified me recently is that my mum's been here all week staying to help out, she's 75 this month and she's still on a diet. And she's still overweight and always has been. And I've reached middle age having spent my entire adult life trying to lose weight. I don't want this for my daughters.

I will get DP to do photos later so that I can track my progress.

Meanwhile, hope the sun is shining wherever you all are this weekend!

I read this thread a few weeks ago, so I did 5:2 last week and tues & thur were fast days, & my fitness pal for logging I lost 3.5lbs! :-) I was worried I'd be starving so was surprised as it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be, I've only recently started using mums-net but these 5:2 threads are fab! Thanks you very much for all the info :-))

Welcome Ashley
Well done on your 1st FDs and your SV. That's a good start.
Many folk are surprised to find the FDs aren't as bad as they expected and it sounds like you'll soon get used to them.
It's a very friendly place here, so post whenever you need advice, or to tell us how you are doing.

You've had significant SVs, olive and with clothes getting looser you are definitely losing bodyfat.
You've also had healthy eating & lifestyle NSVs which will help you longterm to feel better.

When you've a few stone to go, just divide your goal into mini-goals of say 10 lb or 5kg and we'll all cheer you on when you reach them
It's a WOE, not a race. Over the weeks & months, you will burn fat until you reach your goal safely - and you have the tools to maintain that longterm.

Morning all
I'm having a Sunday FD. I'm off to the gym now for fasted training

Morning! Enjoy you training session, BigChoc!

I did MFP yesterday and it was a revelation - limit is about 1800 and despite no snacks or desserts, I only just stayed under the limit!

a whole kilo might have disappeared in last 48 hours but it's early days

Well done with mfp, Eagle Now you can see what lifestyle habits have been getting in the way of your goals.
No snacking can really help you stay within TDEE, as well as avoiding cravings spirals.

wrt dessert: A tangerine / berries / kiwi fruit are examples of what you can get for 30-50 cals

Fruit & Veg
btw, Mosely strongly recommends only 1-2 portions fruit per day:
His checklist for signs of insulin resistance / pre-T2 includes having 3 or more portions daily.
This agrees with research suggesting that women, especially non-athletes, need to watch the amount of fruit they consume, if they are trying to lose fat.

Pack your meals with different kinds of non-starchy veg (most veg except potatoes or parsnips):
Veg usually have more nutrients than fruit, e.g. a red bell pepper contains nearly 3x the VitC of an orange and also contains Vit A - important for eyes.

I did 2.5 hrs fasted circuits & free weights at the gym.
So hot here (in Germany) I'm just having kefir and protein shakes for my Sunday FD, plus a red bell pepper.

I find it helpful on weekend FDs to spend most of the day at the gym, just because it prevents me hearing fridge whispers
I won't train again today, just a couple of short walks outside by the river to relax. I'm mostly just enjoying their wifi and footbath - but not the sauna atm !

Just wanted to share that in 10 weeks following 16:8 diet I've lost 10lbs! And at least 2 inches off my waist I've got 4lbs to go for my initial target, and I'll reassess whether I might want to lose some more when I get there. Keep going everyone, and thanks for all the help and support BigChoc

Congratulations on your SV and waist NSV, fastingrocks
That's an excellent rate of loss when you are so close to target

Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI with body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

Thanks BigChoc, I'll take a look at that. I'm 5'6'' so for my BMI to be in the healthy weight range I need to weigh 8st2 to 11st3. I'm currently 10st 4, initial target 10st but I may well try and reduce to 9st7. I'll have to accept that weight loss will slow from now on, as my TDEE has dropped as I've lost weight, and I think 1lb every 2 weeks will be more achievable. We'll see how it goes. I am finding 16:8 very simple though - it works for me better than 5:2 as I like doing the same thing every day. It's really interesting how cutting out snacks (I tend to eat twice a day only now) has meant that I don't really get hungry between meals. If anyone had told me this before I started this diet I wouldn't have believed them

Kitchen closed at about 550 cals, good for my maintenance FD.

Fastingrocks Cutting out snacks is a great lifestyle NSV and often the key to weight management.
Also, if you usually just eat twice daily, that is classic 16:8, which maximises fat-burning.

To boost the next stage, I suggest Mosely's Fat Blasts, which are just a few mins hard exercise on 3-5 days per week, see our own 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3 for details and the science behind HIIT.

I'm 60 and I just can't remember snacks existing before about 1980, when Big Food realised the profits they could make and changed the way we eat.

Imo: snacking, booze and the sheer availability of food compared to pre-1980 are the major causes of the obesity epidemic.
People haven't changed, but the food environment around us has changed more quickly than at any time in human history. We evolved to maximise food intake, because for almost all human history the problem was obtaining sufficient calories.