5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi, this is my first day on the 5:2 diet.

So I skipped breakfast, and now I'm planning to have 2 scrambled eggs with chapati, which brings to 250 Calories.

The other 250 I'll save for dinner.

I hope I'm doing it right?

Thanks gardengirl sounds yummy

Defo going to try those muffins - thanks!

Welcome timegate and well done Thursday fasters.

I have had a good NFD and had a (faster) workout this morning too - am definitely back on track, and also visibly leaner. I think that's more hormonal than anything else - finished the progesterone, got my period - but it's very motivating feedback nonetheless!

I wish I could have another FD tomorrow tbh, but I have team lunch and DS and I always get takeaway chips on a Friday. So even though I won't eat anything else tomorrow, I can't see that lot coming in much below 1000kcal.

I start FSH injections tomorrow, so am staying mindful and focusing on keeping my NFDs as healthy as possible (Friday chips excepted), as it's entirely possible that FDs may have to adjust a little. Or they might be absolutely fine, who knows. Either way it will be good to reinforce good NFD habits.

*fasted

So 2nd FD complete total calories came to 503, including half a glass of sis milk before an early night.

Found it much harder today with Dd at home particularly when she tried to share her ham sandwich and crisps from her picnic lunch with me.

We all sat down to dinner together which was lovely, just need to know how to explain to Dd that I'm eating different things as she was getting concerned that her spag Bol was unhealthy when I had corgetti instead of spaghetti.

Let's see what tomorrow's weigh in brings.

I had a unexpected fast day today.

We were going to do a high protein BBQ but due to the weather switched it to a FD.

Luckily I'm still following the Low carb rules up until tea time. Had a school picnic to go to and just took a meal replacement bar as low carbing out of the house is a PITA and I need to keep up appearances of eating at these events as people have said how well I'm doing with weight loss but I'm getting the comments now of "hope your not going to loose any more" I've ahead a lot in my face and upper body but tummy and legs haven't gone the same way.
Not great but I'm not that confident to tell people to mind there own business.

Had a salad for tea so that totals approx 300 cals plus 135 for the meal bar but watch is saying burnt 250 today so will grab a small something later.

Went for all you can eat last night, wasn't brilliant but was no where near as bad as normal my portion had definitely reduced and wasn't as carb loaded as normal so that's a bonus.
For me I'm being very good but when we go for the occasional meal it be nice to relax a bit and order what I fancy.

My new bikini will be here tomorrow so that will be the kick up the backside I need to get back to the gym.

Welcome, timegate
Your plan sounds fine. Do let us know how your FD went

Congrats on your SV, Woo

Welcome back, Justtrying
Good luck and I hope you soon recover your fitness after that horrid car accident

When explaining different food choices to DCs on FDs, useful explanations:

• DC need some foods because they are still growing, while parents need different foods because they are fully grown and they need different nourishment as they get older.
• Alternatively, say you are feeling a bit tired or hot and fancied e.g. veg pasta instead of ordinary

On FDs, to help avoid headaches / weakness, I recommend a teasp Marmite or a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (each 10 cals).
It replenishes salt & minerals - you can get low on FDs because you are drinking plenty but the smaller volume of food supplies less salt than you are used to

Hi, I'm rejoining after stopping breastfeeding and going back to work. Doing the 5:2 as recommended by Dr Michelle Garvie I.e. no carbs at all on FDs. FD tomorrow, working long day. Salad already made :-)

Stripey Your NFD eating philosophy sounds sensible and sustainable

Some "friends" and even family can feel quite threatened when they see someone actually managing to lose bodyfat and change their shape.
Just stay strong and keep to your own sensible goals, not theirs
Motto:

"My body, my business"

For those who tend to apple shape, low carb and / or 5:2 help improve insulin metabolism and hence lose weight around the midsection.
Otherwise, where you lose fat first depends mostly on genetics.

For biological, i.e. hormonal reasons, women typically find it difficult to lose lower body fat
Fat cells in stubborn areas - e.g. around thighs and bum - may have 20x as many alpha receptors (resist fat-burning) as beta receptors (not resistant).
It takes patience, but eventually most women with realistic aims for lower body can achieve their goals.

Thank you for the welcomes

It went well today, I came in just under 500 calories. It wasn't too bad thankfully. Then again it has been less than 2 weeks since Ramadhan ended and I fasted for 17 hours without water. This should be a doodle in comparison but I am too greedy

I just hope I keep at it. I've realised I keep snacking and I have way too many sweet treats. I have a weakness for chocolates and cake!

Welcome back, reward
Michelle Harvie used low carb, i.e. no starchy carbs, on FDs.
Her study subjects just used Atkins RTD low carb shakes, but protein + low carb veg is more sustainable longterm for most folk

Well done on your 1st FD, timegate A good start.

On FDs, no snacking, no junk, no booze

Keep to no snacking on NFDs also:

• Eat meals, preferably at least 4 hrs apart
• If you want a "treat", have it as part of your meal, never on its own
• No calories between meals, even "healthy" snacks like veg or fruit, because

a) Snacks keep insulin raised which tends to hinder fat-burning during the day.
A Diabetes UK study found those at risk of diabetes had better results eating fewer times per day, even with the same total daily number of calories (link to study is under the Fasting Science section in the OP)

b) The total calories consumed per day is usually higher with snacks - healthy snacks may cause you to eat less at the next meal, but not usually to the amount of the snack.

Help to control bad habits - e.g. sweet treats / booze / pizza / crisps / .....
Either
give them up for a month - and then maybe forever
Or
2:5 it, i.e. allow it only on 2 days per week. Try to have it once only on those days, not multiple portions, multiple times

Welcome back just. Good luck and sorry you are still in pain
Welcome back reward - I do just protein and veg on FDs too, think that's what alot of us do
Welcome time 5:2 really works, especially if you cut out snacking!
SV congratulations to grif and wiggle
Leaner NSV nell that's great!
stripey just ignore the comments- you know what's healthy for you
Have a good day everyone........

< clears throat a bit shyly>........

.............just wanted to mention....

my SV of 50lb down since January
Feel SO much fitter and healthier.
5;2 rocks!

Thank you for all your encouragement, lost 2.5 lbs this week so very happy. Just wondering how to fit in a second fast day next week now.
BCF will try the marmite, thank you, makes sense about the lack of salt.

Morning all, checking out for hols. Bring on le vin rouge et blanc, du fromage et des
baguettes! Packed my exercise gear though!

See you in 10 days....

Wow everyone's doing really well on here!

I didn't mention after my meal out I did have a 0.8lbs gain. But after my fast day yesterday I've lost that and a extra 0.2lbs.

I'm pleased with that as it will keep me on the straight and narrow over the weekend. As I weigh daily I have learnt I can lose during the NFD aswell if I'm not naughty.

I've had 4 people comment on my weightloss and 3 mentioned not loosing anymore but bmi is 23.9. I'm keeping a eye on inches lost too and was delighted too see this week a inch off bum and hips but I also had another off my waist. My waist is the smallest part and I feel makes me look out of porportion.

Good luck to everyone who is fasting today, onwards and downwards

This thread is great for motivation. Am on second fast day. Haven't eaten anything yet, saving calories for later. Hardest time will be when making the kids tea. Calories from spare fish fingers don't count right????

Wow clearskies, that's incredible! And everyone else's progress and victory are really inspiring.

Wow, 50 lb down, congratulations on your SV, Clear
That's a major milestone Very well done indeed

Congrats on your inches SV, Stripey
Especially inches from the waist, because waist measurement is a strong indicator of the levels of visceral (organ) fat. Subcutaneous (under skin) fat and lower body fat is far less important for health.

I suggest most folk aim for waist / height below 0.5, but some feel more confortable quite a bit lower, especially those who workout.

Well done on your SV, Justtrying A successful return to 5:2

tiddles Those fishfingers would make a tasty breakfast sandwich tomorrow.

Enjoy your vacation, confused

Well done Clearskies - that's bloody amazing!! Longer term, my goal is about the same, but it's so hard when you're setting out.

I did 2nd FD today. No idea yet what my cal total is but imagine it's s bit under the 1,000 limit. I'm tending to eat the same things on each FD and have the extra challenge of being vegetarian. I wonder if there's any other foods people can suggest which I could incorporate? Most days I have:
Soup, boiled eggs, salad, small amount of milk for hot drinks, houmous, quorn burger, small amount of strong cheese, steamed veg. Any leftover calories go on yoghurt or almonds.

Thanks to the heat I've only managed 7.5k steps today. Am wondering if I should get out and finish the job off before bedtime!

EagleRay These look delic (and I've stored the link for the next thread OP )
Vegetarian 5:2 FD recipes

Thanks BigChoc - I'm not very recipe orientated at the mo as only have about 5 mins to prepare food otherwise I run out of time to eat it before baby screams but have spotted a couple of quick easy ones there plus ideas for specific foods to incorporate. I'm very 'samey' with FD food as know I can get through the day on the same routine but I really need to try and get a bit more variety in!

How are you doing, Cecile ? Have you got into a fasting routine ?