5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

4lb down that's a stone gone. I'm so happy I wanted to lose the stone by scout camp so my trousers would fit and I've done it with 2 weeks to spare

Only another 4.5 st to go to reach a healthy weight.

good going olivebranch! specially with 2 weeks spare =)

Been away and ate more than I should, naturally, 2 kilos on but going for a mini-fast today and another on Friday

Hello, I would like to join your thread.

Ive just done 12 weeks on a low carb diet and lost 2 stone3lbs I have 4lbs to get to my target weight but I may see if I can go a tad lower.
My bmi has come down from 29.5to 24.1

I want to now do 5:2 as I want to loose a bit more but aswell I want to do it to maintain my weight, after doing low carb if I am not careful I will pile it all back on as I have done in previous years.

I've been looking at your thread for a little while as my weight loss is slowing down and 12 weeks of low carb is enough for me now.
After chatting to someone on the weekend who has done 5:2 she gave me some meal replacement sachets to try so I did a fast day Monday. I went over slightly as I didn't log a small piece of cheese I had. I weighed Monday morning and again tuesday morning and I lost a pound overnight.

As I am just finishing up on my last diet I don't want to go crazy on the non fast days as in those 5days I feel I can do quite a bit of damage. I aim to reintroduce my carbs slowly and have the occasional treat and I'm hoping I can be a tad more flexible doing this.

Hi zebra, and well done on your weight loss - that's brilliant.

Kitchen closed at just over 500kcal here. A good day. Breakfast and evening meal only again. I might stick to this for now I think, although I needed a bit of Diet Coke in the middle of the day and I'd like to do away with that ideally.

When DS starts school in Sept my working pattern will shift an hour later and so I'll switch to breakfast and lunch only on fast days, which will probably suit me best.

Planning a mini fast tomorrow to compensate for a poor NFD yesterday.

Thanks BCF feeling much better today and can breathe through my nose again - the relief!

Great SV wiggle and so close to your target now!

Well done Olive we're in it for the long haul - waving goodbye to every lost stone is a great feeling! Still many to lose here too - we can do it

Welcome zebra and good luck. There's lots of room for flexibility in this WOE. Sounds like you're being wisely mindful of taking it gently after 12 weeks low carb. Carb cravings when they strike can be like raging beasts within ime! No snacking really helps

Hope all Wednesday fasters going well. Close those kitchens, brush those teeth and have an early night!

Congratukations on your SV, Olive You lost that stone quickly.
Only a few lb to go until that healthy BMI milestone. If you want, I'm sure you can lose a bit more and get to what you feel is Happy Weight for your individual body.

Welcome, Zebra and congrats on your SV too.

• On FDs, if you prefer shakes you can use the Atkins ones, as in Dr Michelle Harvie's 5:2 human study.

• Or have protein and veg - many folk like to keep the FDs low carb and add starchy carbs & fruit on the NFDs.

• Even with shakes, drink extra water on FDs, since you'll be getting much less fluid from the reduced calories.

• There's no need to resume sugary crap on NFDs, but you can gradually add healthy carbs and fruit.

• Eat meals, with no snacks - even "healthy" ones between.
  This helps insulin metabolism and fat burning.

• I recommend first adding beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt because these are all in Mosely's low carb Blood Sugar Diet maintenance - excellent for your insulin metabolism

• Then gradually add complex starchy carbs in sensible portions, e.g. wholegrain bread, quinoa, brown/ red rice
  About 80g raw weight is the total amount of starchy carbs in an NFD meal, if you want "normal" carb days.

Well done on your FD, NeilWilson Those 2 meals seem a good aystem for you.
I suggest you just move on and just have a good healthy NFD within TDEE tomorrow, rather than trying for a mini; it's best to concentrate on sensible NFDs and not to get into the habit of having extra FDs or minis to compensate.
Also, too many non-NFDs can make the WOE feel too restrictive and less sustainable

That's good your cold is so much better, clear
Keep drinking water though and have an early night, to boost recovery.

Thanks so much BCF that's a very interesting post, I have screen shot it and will refer back to it, I'm doing online shopping tomorrow and will order some of your suggestions.

Tbh I'm terrified of eating carbs as I do eat far too much, so I'm definitely taking that advice on board.

I've been drinking about 3L a day the last 3 months and I intend to keep that up, I have really tried to use this time to stop snacking, I have a small meal starting at 1 and then eat pretty much every 3 hours on the dot. The high protein really fills me up and had not only reduced my sugar cravings but my portions have drastically reduced.

I'm either going to have a fast day tomorrow or Friday. My H has brought me a little treat home from work as I need to now get myself out of ketosis. I have ungraciously accepted the treat for later but if I weigh in the morning and have gained even a oz I will be fasting.

I have yoyo dieted for the last 6 years and the sad reality is as soon as I hit my target or stop dieting I will never be that weight again as i will pile it back on.

Can I ask a question, I apologise if it's daft but after speaking to my mum earlier she was really pleased I am taking up 5:2 as she did it for a while as she read it could possibly be a anti cancer diet. She's had cancer herself and is literally trying everything suggested online to prevent a reoccurrence.

Have they done anymore research into this?

I have cancer on both my sides in my family and a friend who is mid 30s at the moment has got weeks left due to cancer so it's on my mind quite alot at the moment.

Don't know about cancer - I suspect nobody can really tell you, as it'll be almost impossible to research. People do say that there are immune system-related benefits, and that can only be a good thing in terms of your body keeping on top of mutations etc.

Am reminded of this though - about how much easier fasting can make chemo.

I forgot my own question!

Today was a FD for me, but a hard one because I woke up really really hungry. What do you all do on those sort of days?

It's interesting, one of the pleasures of this WOE is that I have rediscovered hunger, and the real delight of FOOD - but a whole day of feeling properly hungry is too much, and I can only stave it off for so long with coffee...

If I wake hungry on a FD I think to.myself'I'll see how it goes. I can always do a mini fast ' and often the hunger wears off. I'm partial to a cup.of bovril or Bouillon.
I do abandon FD if I get a migranous head.

Morning all, I'm back again (again!). Couldn't get into the zone last time but I'm finally there! And I've missed so much!

Congrats on all the babies! I remember when you got your BFP mrsmugoo!

Congrats B&W on the press up challenge

And bigchoc I missed your big birthday! Many belated happies!

As for me, I've had a crazy 6 months and have gained half a stone, grr. Still mainailing exercise though and it's pretty well hidden but clothes are tighter and the Trousers of Ambition are a little snug! On the up side, I can do a pull-up now (just the one!!).

Had a good first FD on Tuesday, second one today. Nothing except milk in coffee til 7ish, then dhal soup. Lost a whopping 4lb after Tuesday, that carbon bloat is coming off quickly thank goodness.

I'm off on hols a week tomorrow so I'd like a bit of a head start so there's not too much damage to rectify when I get back.

Good luck all other Thursday fasters...

carb bloat. Bloody autocorrect.

Morning all!

Good luck to all Thursday's fasters, stay strong!

whenwillsummercome when I wake up hungry on a FD I just get on with it and plough through. I never abandon a FD.

Had a FD On Tuesday and planning 2 more FD on Friday and Sunday. I have now only a couple of lbs to lose, max 3, so want to get there asap and then I'll maintain with 6:1 and that will be my WOL.

I have been shopping for some clothes and got some lovely trousers, shoes and silk blouses. I also need to take some of my clothes to the seamstress to make them smaller!

I also have been to a hairdresser had a cut and highlights and did mani and pedi at home. I even did a face mask (didn't have one in years)!

Got a compliment today from a fellow school run mum who said I've been dressed very nice lately.

I think my weight loss inspiration comes from decluttering my home, I lurk on Marie Condo threads quite a lot and have been decluttering like mad for the last few years and now my home is fully decluttered and only needs maintainance. So it was my body turn to be decluttered!

Morning all

I'm going in for a Thursday FD here, water only so far.

For lunch I've planned a chicken breast with a heap of greens, and dinner will be soup - with the option of a slice of bread if needed.

I'm so pleased to be feeling back in the zone after the stress of the last month or two !

Welcome back confused!

wiggle - congrats on the compliment NSV, they are the best aren't they!

summer - when I wake hungry, I do extra keeping my brain busy stuff, and initially drink a pint or two of water as quickly as I can, good luck!

Stripey - don't know about cancer, but there are many health benefits I've experienced personally. For eg my asthma has improved massively. I'd suggest if cells are repairing that must help reduce mutations - but I'm not a scientist and am just following the logic through, of course I doubt its something we'll definitively get the answer to!

Morning all. I'm on a FD today. I've got my trusty water bottle beside me as I try to take my mind off my stomach by researching the genetic contribution to ASD (not for fun, for a uni assignment!).
Plan is to get through til I pick my DC up from school and then reward myself with a couple of rice cakes and bovril and maybe a babybel and then a stir fry with veg, prawns and zero noodles for dinner. I manage so much better when I've fully planned my eating for the day.

Congrats on being so close to your goal, Wiggle, I'm probably only 5 or 6 lbs off but I'm off on holiday in a couple of weeks and I have a strong suspicion there'll be very little fasting happening then! Oh well, as per your plan, confused, damage limitation is probably the best course of action in the run up to the holiday!

Good luck anyone else fasting today

Sorry, x-posted with you, MrDarcy. Hope your day goes well! Your lunch sounds good stop thinking about food!!

That's a lifestyle NSV, Wiggle You've really taken charge and changed your image now

Zebra Most of the factors for cancer are outside our control e.g. genetics, pollution, plain bad luck.
However, we can improve our chances to some extent.

5:2 / IF can help wrt risk factors like excess weight, but won't help health if you do IFOC (IF on Crap)

For IF to improve health: (as distinct from just weight loss)

• STOP smoking. The most important issue by factor x 20
• Keep within nhs safe alcohol limits. Mosely has now reduced his alcohol intake even below that, after weighing risks cancer vs heart disease. Never have alcohol on FDs
• Eat nutritious food - the healthiest diet is probably Mediteranean: fish, loads of veg, beans & lentils, olive oil, nuts, moderate fruit, complex carbs (optional) in moderate amounts
• Avoid added sugar, junk carbs, processed meat with nitrites.
• Take regular exercise

I referenced several peer-reviewed science articles in "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health" at the bottom of the OP,
They include papers by Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) who showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer.
Her tests showed some reduction in those risk parameters that they can measure.

Have a good day, Thurs fasters!

I am doing 1000cals today - in spite of BCF's sensible advice to the contrary I don't plan to make a habit of it, but it's so far proving very easy anyway. 500kcal down and not at all hungry... Loads of space left for soup, bread and maybe even a small pudding. :)

Well done on the pullup NSV, confused
With only a week before your hols, I strongly recommend mfp to keep your NFDs within TDEE
You could also make this a 4:3 week, as a one-off

Checking in online a pretty good FD. 17000 steps so far, long dog walk done, no food consumed. I missed a gym session in order to go to an interview - at the gym! And I got the job, woop woop So I'll have no excuse to miss a workout in future...

Hope Thursday fasters are feeling strong.

Congrats on the new job, confused Sounds ideal

I was going to see what my weight did this morn before deciding if I was going to do a FD.

My weight hadn't changed but I've caught a horrible sickness bug of my DD. Not eaten a thing today yet and struggling with the drinking as I can't keep it down.

I've not got much in the house food wise don't fancy a meal replacement product so I'm going to have 2slicesof wholemeal toast and see how that goes.

Thanks bc. I'm looking forward to it.

Good FD. Dhal soup and a small piece of cheese, almost bang on 500cals.

Off to bed now, then fasted gym session tomorrow.

Night all...