5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on your SV, Stroke, and that salad sounds pretty good to me.
FD done, going to bed at 586. Not too bad. Kettlebells in the morning then I'm going to eat something delicious.

Wow Stroke sounds like you're on a roll!
And Elephant that sounds like a very successful day. I'm drinking a peppermint tea in bed after a 550 day so I'm pretty happy with myself too

Well done Stroke!

I resumed 5:2 last week after a year away having a baby (albeit a 1,000 cal one as BF) with a single FD to test the water. It went well so did my traditional Tues and Thurs FDs this week and am now 3.5lbs down from last Wednesday I don't need to lose that amount each week but it's a nice encouraging start and it seems to have somehow halted my general excessive eating as not so fixated with cakes now.

I had coffee with some other mums yesterday (most had slightly older children) and mentioned 5:2 as had to decline various offers of food. I think they thought I was giving myself a hard time so soon after giving birth but then I don't think they realised how overweight I am (I hide it quite well). The '9 months on, 9 months off' thing was mentioned too, ie it takes as long to lose the weight as it did to gain it, but my body will happily hold on to the extra weight forever without some sort of intervention. Although that might say more about my eating habits than my body!

Hope everyone else has had a good week!

Congrats on your SV, Stroke You are fully in the fasting swing

Congrats on your SV too, Eagle A good start back.
The rate of loss will probably slow soon, but don't worry; Just stay on track, the weekly losses accumulate and you really notice the difference after a month or so.

Well done on your FDs, Elephant, Juliet Now relax and enjoy your NFDs.

Stroke Many people feel cold on FDs; some find this lasts for months until their body gets used to regulating temp on FDs.
Especially hands & feet, which are the circulatory extremities and receive the least heat from the central body.

It's nothing to worry about, just another reason why a brisk walk is good on FDs

Probable causes_ of feeling cold:_

• You've burned a significant amount of fat quite quickly, so less fat to keep you warm.
  Even for those who find the scales have hardly changed, there has often been a hidden change in body composition, with more lean mass and less bodyfat - burning fat not muscle is a known advantage of intermittent fasting.

• Up to 10% of the body's energy is used for digestion, which creates heat as a side effect. Consuming only ¼ or ⅓ of your TDEE creates less heat

Thanks BigChoc. I feel really good today. I'm off for a reunion with a bunch of old uni friends (20 years since we left - how old does that make me feel?!) and I tried on a pair of jeans I love that I normally have a bit of a muffin top with but now I don't! Makes me feel much more confident to meet up with people I haven't seen in a few years.

I bought a new dress this morning for a family party at the weekend.
Ive gone down a size. It's a shirt dress and I usually have to size up to accommodate my boobs so I am very happy. DH has also noticed a different in my shape too.

Possibly too-niche question: Anyone got any experience of using synthetic hormones whilst doing IF?

Specifically, I'm likely to be donating eggs within the next few weeks. The upshot of this is that I'm taking noresthirone at the moment (progesterone, to delay my period and sync my cycle with the recipient), and will be doing a 10ish day stint of stims.

My feeling at the moment is to play it by ear and see how we go. I feel hormone changes quite dramatically - I think I'd find it extremely hard to fast the day before my period, for example, and I remember being constantly starving in early pregnancy (and vomming immediately if I failed to eat enough). And then there are all the reported hormone changes as a result of IF (whether that's due to fat loss or insulin changes or whatever). I obviously don't want to make the process harder than it needs to be, and I certainly don't want to compromise the efficacy of it, but I don't see any reason to needlessly graze / eat breakfast / totally forego fasting for a number of weeks if there's just no need.

Grateful for any ideas, however tangential! Given most women who go through this are doing IVF for the purpose of TTC, Google isn't getting me very far! I do appreciate that it's niche. My scientific understanding is relatively weak so please don't assume any connection here is obvious! It would be useful to have an idea of what to expect, in terms of hunger/ strength/ ability to function/ nausea/ IF-relevant side effects...

Oh - and congrats to Olive and juliet on NSVs!

NeilWilson IF (Intermittent Fasting) can sometimes help problems affecting fertility, especially when related to insulin metabolism, e.g. PCOS or to significant obesity.

However, some very lean women athletes, who have done the much tougher ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) or the original LeanGains 16:8 lifting protocol, have found this adds too much stress to their system and stopped periods after some months.

So, IF used sensibly helps fertility, but not if taken to extremes, or if there is too much additional stress from extreme exercise / meds / family / job.

I don't know how much the meds you are taking affect you as an individual

• If you feel ok, I suggest you continue 5:2, but priotitise a healthy form - nutritious NFDs with minimal crap and booze, keep exercise to comfortable limits, especially cardio, which can be draining and physically stressful if not done sensibly.

• If you feel tired / stressed, then until you finish egg donation, I suggest healthy maintenance.
  i.e. No FDs, but every day: eat nutritious meals, no snacks between, staying within TDEE. Minimise crap & booze. Have at least a daily wallk. Get plenty of sleep.

Hi all sorry not kept up with everyone's news. Reconnecting after a few weeks of horrible stressful family stuff.

Manged to keep my FDs going, but with some NFDs going awry I have wobbled for a bit. So steered clear of the scales for a couple of weeks, stressful stuff has calmed down (for now at least), got NFDs more back on track and have now emerged with a tiny SV of a measly 1/2lb down. Could be worse but frustrating when I'm on such a mission to get myself healthy again.

Well done to everyone it's going well for and stay strong anyone else having a wobble of some sort or another.

Sorry to hear about the family problems, clear That can make it so tough to stay focused.
You did well to manage even a small SV rather than regain. So pat yourself on the back for that
Most folk are on vacation and will return with a bit of regain to zap before they can progress. You are already to go.

just about to start this after being inspired by the success stories. I have caculated my TDEE and am going to start fasting tomorrow, any top tips to get me going? I am a little bit scared about Fasting. I am always hungry...

Welcome, Woodpecker and good luck on your 1st FD tomorrow
Plenty of tips & links under the How To Start section of the OP, but main tips:

• Hunger comes in waves, but doesn't worsen. It does you no harm, unless you have certain medical conditions or meds. You have at least 50,000 calories stored as fat which you can burn for fuel.
• If you have milk & sugar in hot drinks, then tonight measure them out & calorie count them in advance for the whole day and put them into little pots.
• Plan your meals tonight for the FD in advance, each meal based on protein & veg. Optionally add carbs
• 1st thing tomorrow, naked, after loo but before eating or drinking - weigh yourself (optionally), measure waist & hips.
• Then have a big drink of water & keep drinking water through the day. Aim for 2l.
• A teasp Marmite or tbsp unsweetened soy sauce helps avoid headaches or weakness
• Eat meals, no snacking or grazing on nibbles. That goes for NFDs too.
• Don't eat fruit on its own, have it as part of a meal
• NO alcohol on FDs EVER. Save it for NFDs
• Avoid fruit juice, sugary breakfast cereals, sweets, biscuits, cake etc too. Also for NFDs only
• Take a short walk outside if you can and have an early night - it all boosts health benefits.

Do post for support and to say how you are doing

Hi all, may I join you please?
Tomorrow I am starting 5:2 for the very first time with my first FD. My sister has lost 3.5 stone doing it and recently dh has lost about 1.5. I have always stayed away from it as I didn't think it was for me but I can't arue with the stats so I am giving it a go. Wish me luck!!

Thanks BCF things all calmer now and am on track. What I aspire to is getting to the point where I never let stressful life stuff effect my eating. Have made alot of progress on that one, but old habits and all that.... The really good news I forgot to post is that I am definitely building up muscle bit by bit - from my morning stomach crunches, pressups and planks and am noticing increased core strength in all sorts of daily active stuff.

Good luck woodpecker - follow BCF's excellent advice. Lots of water, keep busy, plan exactly what you will eat, keep mini pot of marmite in your bag for any wobble. FWIW I felt very hungry at bedtime and through the night first ever FD but my body got used to them very quickly. Also find it helps me to have low carb and extra protein 1st meal the following day (whatever time that is) otherwise I can want to overeat carbs the next day. And the no snacking on FDs and NFDs is what works best. Hope it goes well!!

good luck to you too ale just crossposted with you!

Welcome, ale and good luck tomorrow

Good luck Ale and Woodpecker for your first FDs.
I'm checking in for Monday FD after overdoing it on the weekend again. Got to get those weekends back on track or I'm going to undo all my progress...

Good luck today everyone

Good luck, Monday fasters

Well done on your fitness NSV, clear

Good luck to the new joiners for your first FD!

Keeping mind that they do get easier - quite quickly - then you'll start looking forward to them.

I'm back in the zone after a week or so indulging myself after my press up challenge. Belt feels a bit tight - but a week of 16:8 and one FD will sort it.

I've maintained my goal weight for 3.5 yrs now, and I've never felt so good!

Checking in for a Monday FD - good luck to everyone else who is fasting today.
I'm going to try something slightly different and have breakfast at 10ish and then dinner with DS at 5.30pm. (Until now I've done three small meals on FDs, not two.) In theory it should make more sense but I'm keeping an eye on my afternoon productivity at work. Struggling to find the optimal way to eat around particular constraints re time, work, and the (in)convenience of what I really want to eat on a FD.

Thanks BCF for helpful thoughts on the meds stuff. :)

Neil Sounds fine.
Mosely has breakfast and supper on FDs which he says works well for him: it gives him 2 x 12-hr total fasts and apparently allows him to eat with his family