5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

MrD Barleans Omega Swirl are oils, either flax or fish, but they taste only of the flavours - choc, tangerine, lemon etc.
To boost your Omega 3, why not just add oily fish 3 x per week to your mealplan super-healthy, e.g.
. Grilled / baked salmon, whole or strips for dinner
. Salad with tinned tuna / sardines - in brine, not oil (oil usually v processed low quality)
. Mackerel & horseradish on toast
Fish Recipes: BBC , Guardian

Kitchen closed ... at a grape under 500 cal. Pleased, because my target is 1000cal half-fasts =)

Another Monday faster here lo, lo everyone, there seems to be a lot of us that like Mondays!

Went all day and just had a chicken breast, broccoli, green beans, carrots and peas for dinner.

Experienced 5:2'ers - How many calories do you all count is in a chicken breast? Just cooked in the oven with herbs, no oil? As MFP is giving me many different amounts, what would you say is an average?

FD kitchen closed on 530 here

BigChoc - I'd love to do better with omega 3 naturally, but I generally can't stand the taste of oily fish! I can (very occasionally) cope with a salmon en croute type affair, but these are obviously very high cal too. I'm not a big fish person generally. but what I do like is more the lemon sole types which are probably practically non existent for omega 3!
Think I'll hunt out one of these swirls to try, as I'm always very concious of not getting enough!

Managed to stick to the plan today - I'm really pleased with that, and have a bag of bgty caesar salad that needs using in the next couple of days so that should make for some healthy NFDs to come too!

MrsTumble - depends on the size, I buy the taste the difference free range ones in sainsburys, and they always say approx size 155g is 186 cals. I use the whole pack between various FDs so I'm happy to accept the default. If you need to be specific (lower end of weight loss time eg) then best to weigh it I'd say.

Thank you Oomrdarcy I think I was underestimating as had put 147. But will weigh next time.

Kitchen is closed at 490 I think, why are there so many cooking programs on the telly!? Hard to not think about food

Kitchen is closed just under 500. Tomorrow is a judgement scales day.

Kitchen closed at 502. Glad to see do many fasters together! Feeling strong, hoping to see a good loss tomorrow!

Ooh it's in my Amazon basket thanks BCF!
End of fast day, almost... Fd are never tough it's nfd that cause me issues, got to be strong

Teeth brushed and ready for bed. Closed today at 520. Well done to us all.

MrD Amazon Barleans

Well done Monday fasters ! Now increase the fasting benefits with a good night's sleep
< croaks sings very tunefully a soothing lullaby >

Had a major wobble late afternoon but managed to keep myself busy - have been waiting in all day for DHL delivery which is still showing on their website as due to be delivered by the end of today. Hmmmm. I think not. Thanks for nothing. By the time I un-busied myself, avoiding the earshot of DH whinging at the footy, I wasn't actually hungry anymore and had literally to force myself to eat the soup I had bought (although the avocado, tomato and beetroot salad I made to go with it hit the spot nicely).

Seems like some good FDs today - congrats to those with SV and NSV.

Checking in for my Tuesday FD

Good morning everyone!
I'm checking in after a successful FD yesterday. I did find it very tough though but my kitchen was firmly shut at 500 cals!
I had a bad weekend though on my NFD's - well when I say bad I really mean good because we were out enjoying ourselves, socialising, meeting old friends, watching Ireland lose football , so I ate way over my TDEE. It will be interesting to see if my 2nd FD can negate any damage done for my weigh-in on Friday.

Can I ask a question.....to work out height/waist ratio - am I right in saying if I am 5'7" in height (=67") my waist measurement should be below 33.5". Where do you measure your waist......is it at bellybutton area?

I must try this to see where I am now.

Have a good day everyone.......I'm hoping I'll be able to keep myself on track today on my NFD.

Checking in for a NFD.

Have a good Tuesday all

-3.10lbs! Yippee! Was admiring myself in the mirror this morning! And showing off my figure during the school run

There is a definite loss at my waste/hips/legs but didn't measure today. Feeling like getting my old figure back after 6 years and 2 kids

2stone

I think you need to measure at the point where your body bends. Lean to one side to find it.

Well done to my fellow monday fasters. I was rewarded with 1lb loss. So i am now back where i was a month ago 😯. 7 days to put on 7 lbs and 3 weeks to lose them again, it really doesnt seem fair.

I have also realised i have been approaching this all wrong. I am still in my quick fix mentality. When really i should read the thread title better and get in shape for life which may take longer and have a few slips on the way.

Focus now is to make the most of what i have got and keep on making small steps to the ultimate goal. I actually look ok in my clothes........ although i am not sure i could go swimming in a pair of jeans and a t shirt

Morning Tuesday club!
FD here - having an Atkins bar for lunch - 119kcals - so dusty but not too bad! Haha. Dinner is a weight watchers pasta pot at 220kcals, which in going to add some broccoli to.

Good luck all!

So, this is my 4th week of fasting, have lost a couple of pounds but really need to reign in my NFD's! My bmi is healthy so I don't have a lot to lose, but would feel much better 5 or 6 pounds lighter.
Far too much wine drinking and picking going on!!
I usually fast Monday and Wednesday but couldn't yesterday as out for dinner last night. Due to other socials, I can't do Thursday or Friday this week so am aiming for 3 mini fasts today, wed and Thursday of about 700-800 calories. Hoping this will work!
Good luck to everyone fasting today. Have had 250 so far today plus a 6 mile run and am starving now! X

Well done on your SV, deepblue, wiggle

You're absolutely right blue You need to think longterm health and learning good habits.
That weight came on over years, from an accumulation of factors, often continuing teenage habits in an grownup body.
It won't come off in a few weeks - sleb / woowoo crash diets often lose 50% muscle, whereas 5:2 preserves lean mass, which we need for health and shape.

you've seen that it is so easy to achieve a huge calorie surplus on vacation etc - and gain fat - but can be much tougher to achieve a calorie deficit and force the body to burn fat. So, use the NFDs to train yourself how to eat in maintenance.

wine If you are already within healthy BMI, you need to be stricter than those with a lot to lose.

. alcohol - and sugar - tend to switch the body from fat burning to fat storage, especially around the waist.
NEVER drink on FDs - the combination of alcohol with v little food is probably harmful longterm.
. Keep within the nhs alcohol guidelines, to safeguard your liver for the longterm, too

. mfp for at least a week, as a reality check on portion size and possible calorie bombs you could cut without much effort

. No snacking It keeps insulin levels raised and hinders fat burning throughout the day. Also tends to increase hunger so you eat more overall and poorer quality
Eat meals, no snacks between, FDs and NFDs

For 2Stone, wiggle and anyone else monitoring inches loss:

Measurements

Don't pull tight. It's a tape measure, not a corset.

Waist:

It's useful as a health risk factor, because it indicates the levels of the more dangerous visceral fat (around organs).
. (Men) - measure horizontally, at the level of the navel
. (Women) - measure horizontally at the narrowest point, usually a couple of inches above the navel.
Target: waist / height less than 0.5

. Hips (Women only) - Largest horizontal circumference around the hips or thighs
Note: around thighs may be more in some women.

. When - Same as main weigh-in:
naked in the morning after going to the loo and before eating or drinking anything

I'm going to rejoin this thread. About 2 years ago I successfully lost 5kg doing 5:2. This time weight is not my motivation.

I've acquired an autoimmune disorder without a name. No real symptoms except a persistent horrible face rash, random itchy welts, dermographism & a very high ANA test (not lupus). I'm worried that this will turn into lupus and I've read enough about the benefits of fasting on autoimmune issues to figure this is worth a shot.

So day 1: peppermint tea, lemon & ginger tea, sparkling water & a black coffee. Dinner was baby kale salad with halloumi & zucchini marinated in vinegar, chilli & garlic - on the current Waitrose recipe cards, the salad without the cheese is delicious and very low calorie.

Ah what's this waist measurement calculator?

Sorry BCF I think I'm being a bit stupid, so I measure my height which is 168cm and my waist should be under half that? 84cm?

Tricky day here as I had a meeting in the pub I resisted the Doom Bar and just had water.
I did have to sit with my back to the bar and really concentrate to drown out the siren song of the scampi fries but I was strong and finished the day on 498 calories

Techniques for a successful NFD:

Delay your first meal of the day as long as possible;
Bulk out any stews/curries with loads of veg - celery and mushrooms especially - and, if you want some carbs, 100g microwaved potato is only 72 cals;
Convert FD meals into NFD ones by adding extra carbs, or lentils/beans, etc.
Don't be sparing with the spices;
Use a smaller plate than usual;
Put less on your fork;
Eat slowly and relish every mouthful;
Put a timer on for 20 minutes when you've finished your meal - any desire to eat more will very likely have disappeared;
If you experience a wave of hunger, know that it won't last - hurry its passing with a glass of water;
If you do want something sweet after a meal - and a piece of 70% chocolate certainly won't hurt - you can reverse the desire for more by eating something savoury; a piece of celery or a small mushroom will do the job. (BTW, vegans only need a teaspoon of nooch for this. )

Hello! Rejoining after going awol after my lovely holiday in May - just done 2 fds so far, back doing alternate day fasting to get into the swing. My first goal is my birthday 1st week of July so let's see how far I get in 2.5 weeks!

I got the job I interviewed for last time I was on here, so am much happier at work, only downside is a 45min to 1hr commute, which I keep using as an excuse to eat crap. Need to stop that!

Good luck all!