5:2 Thread No. 64: Instead of "get in shape for summer," get in shape for the rest of your life. Be a lean mean FASTING machine

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello all and thank you for such an invaluable resource.

Rookie question, I normally skip breakfast but can overeat in the evenings. What would be a good breakfast for non fast days?

Porridge? Banana? Eggs? Gluten intolerant and wheat allergy so always struggle with brekky.

Checking in to record a successful FD here .

I'm not sure that a satisfying brekkie curbs your appetite later in the day Mooing. Many long term fasters skip breakfast. Maybe you could continue to do this and tackle the overindulgence in the evening instead?

Maz is right, Mooing - if you are used to doing without breakfast, I should continue with that.

Until the last couple of months I've been an inveterate evening snacker - when I missed breakfast the next day, I used to tell myself I'd had my breakfast last night!

Now, thanks to the encouragement on this thread, I've used the 2:5 technique to (almost) beat this habit. So I only indulge in the evening on 2 days a week - Friday and Saturday nights - and I don't have anything after dinner on the other 5 days. Last Saturday I could easily have done without anything at night, but thought "I deserved a treat", so I finished off the quarter of a pizza that was left over.

Bit like the mantra, 'I can have it tomorrow', the thought that I could treat myself at the weekend carries me through.

Hooray for women being fit, healthy and strong BCF!! You're an inspiration to us all

Checking in with a NFD ( and a toddler who is under the weather so please send coffee ) weighed in this morning at 10.4 which was disappointing to be honest., at the moment I keep hovering between 10.3-10.5. I have another fast day planned for tomorrow so I'm hoping Sunday scales show a bigger loss. Under 10 stone is my initial goal and then 9.7 is the ultimate aim.

I've been eating well this week and working out so I know the scales will shift eventually but it's bloody annoying all the same!!

Have a good Friday all!!!

I can do 800 full pressups (in umpteen sets) .... wow!

mooing something that helped me was 2-3 dessert spoons greek yoghurt (10% fat) with a big handful strawberries at lunchtime or early afternoon. No brekky. It's low GI and can tide you over quite nicely. Might it be something that would work for you?

Giod luck to the Friday fasters

Moo I suggest you plan your supper in advance, including any starter, pud, alcohol, with suitable portions.
Then stick to the plan, no adhoc changes to the menu.
Keep to nhs alcohol limits and sensible portions of pud, because both booze & sugar increase tendency to nibble.

As soon as you have finished supper, even before clearing up, have a drink of water, then clean your teeth, with flossing.
Then NO after-dinner nibbling or booze - you are psychologically less likely to do so with freshly brushed teeth, but if you feel tempted later, drink water right away and then gargle with strong mouthwash for 30 secs.

Hi all

Checking in this morning after my successful (but very difficult FD yesterday). I really struggled for much of the day.....the morning was fine, then I ate 250 cals at lunch and was completely starving by 4pm so I ate another 250 cals at 4.30pm. The evening seemed quite long and I found my mood was a bit low. But when I went to bed (8.10pm with my book!!!) I was fine, relaxed and happy.

This morning I weigh 12.8 so that’s 4 pounds gone since I started this WOL last Wednesday! I’m happy with that. I’ve only run once and had a party on Saturday (lots of wine and food) so I couldn’t be happier!

I will just have to play around with my FD’s to find what works best for me. I’ve two approaches in mind........1. Eat nothing for as long as possible and then have the 500 cals all at once, maybe around 3 - 4pm or 2. I’m going to try a complete fast for the day.....I think yesterday I was fine until I actually ate if that makes sense. I know some people don’t eat at all on FD’s so I’ll try that (once anyway!).

So wishing everyone a happy weekend. We have no plans this weekend so I’m hoping my NFD’s will be on target. Fingers and toes crossed! I do find it hard to ignore the wine bottle when it is shouting at me! We’ll see.....

I’ll be doing my fourth FD on Monday so at the moment I’m a happy 5:2er! I’ve forgotten already how miserable I was yesterday.....how fickle I am!!!

PS....Bigchocfrenzy...........you are amazing - all I can say is ‘wow’!

Have protein at every meal, e.g. never have fruit on its own

NFD breakfast (ideas for those who eat it)

• GF Flaxmeal cinammon muffin (my fav, 2 mins prep & YUM !) with e.g. 5% Philly cream cheese
• French toast with berries
• Flaxmeal crepe (also YUM) with fruit & optionally Greek yoghurt
• Greek yoghurt full-fat with cinammon, nuts & seeds, and / or berries
• Porridge made with almond milk, cinammon. Add flaked almonds & berries or apple
• 1-2 slices wholegrain or almond bread toast with pnut butter, banana & cinammon
• Omelette with spinach & peppers, or other veg
• Eggs, bacon, tomato, mushrooms
• Bacon & mushroom sarnie (wholegrain or almond bread)

Well done on your SV, 2stone Good start

Saving all your FD cals for supper is a popular option, if it is sutainable for you: it gives you a good 18-23 hours without calories and maximises the fasting benefits.
Directly after supper, drink a full glass water, then clean your teeth, floss & mouthwash. Should stop you eating again.

I strongly recommend against a whole FD without your 500 cals:
you need protein at least once per day to retain lean mass (important for TDEE) and you need nutrients daily to nourish your body and gain the health benefits of fasting.
Try to develop a longterm healthy sustainable WOE, which complete fasts are probably not.
Total fasts are too much stress for your body and longterm may even raise cortisol, which increases fat storage.

I'm struggling to eat enough protein even on a NFD.
I need some easy ways to increase my protein

Olive Are you vegetarian or vegan ? (so I can make useful suggestions)

Please help! I've been back on the 5:2 wagon since January and I just can't shift 9Ibs to get me down to the lowest I managed on. 5:2 before I self sabotaged! I'm 5'7" and female, I walk 10000 steps a day I try to eat well but sugar and coffee addiction is not helping. I weighed 12 stones 9 in Jan and now I'm 12.2 and have been for 6 weeks. I try to get a 3500 cal deficit a week but sometimes I'm a bit out. I really need help I look shit and I feel shit

TwinMama Your BMI is 26.6
Not very far above healthy range, so it probably means you need to concentrate on keeping within TDEE on NFDs.
That requires some initial effort, which is a pain, but unavoidable if you want to progress.

4 weeks 5:2 BOOT CAMP

• No snacking between meals. It's non-negotiable . Eat 2-4 meals on NFDs, nothing in between.
• Keep to nhs alcohol guidelines. Also non-negotiable Ideally have a dry month - Alcohol stops fat-burning for hours while your liver processes the toxic byproducts like formaldehyde. It tends to increase fat storage around the waist.
• Caffeine can actually help weight loss, especially drunk just before exercise it helps monilise fat for burning. . Diet coke is only a problem if it makes you crave sweet things. If it does, cut it out . Hot drinks only a problem if your milk & sugar adds up to a lot So drink it without sugar And swap from cows milk to unsweetened almond milk, which has v v few calories and is healthy.
• Aim to drink 2l per day. Start the day with a big glass of water and keep bottles with you always.
• Do you mfp ? If not, mfp for at least a full week, to get the full picture / reality check. You may have hidden calorie bombs lurking, or unrealistic portion size
• Calculate sedentary TDEE and aim for this on 4 days per week. With 10k steps, you count as "lightly active" so on the 5th NFD, aim for this TDEE, about 200 cals more.
• Reduce GI of your meals: . Base meals on protein - boost fish if you eat it - and veg . Add beans / lentils / peas at least once daily - v good for insulin control. . Then add complex carbs e.g. wholegrain bread, quinoa, oats (not instant) , brown / red rice . Sensible portion of carbs when cooked is no more than the size of your fist, max. 100g ccoked / 1-2 slices bread . Full fat Greek yoghurt most days
• Restrict fruit to max 2 portions per day, no more than 1 should be high-sugar fruit (banana, mango, pineapple, grapes) . Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit totally
• Cut sugar & sugary treats It tends to add fat around the waist. . Ideally go cold turkey . If not poss, then 2:5 it, i.e. have it only 2 days per week, only 1 sensible portion
• Add a mini-FD or 3rd FD for these 4 weeks

BCF neither but probably have meat 3 times a week and fish once a week

Olive Eat fish, eggs, poultry - bigger portions and with every meal. Cut right down on carb portion size. Moderate fat.

Protein Meal Suggestions
B: Scrambled eggs with smoked salmon / Cheese & pepper omelette / bacon sarnie / smoked salmon & cream cheese on wholegrain toast / Greek yoghurt, cinammon, flaked almonds & berries /
L: Salad with 2 proteins - both cottage cheese / kidney beans AND with chicken breast / sliced roast beef / smoked salmon / smoked mackerel / tin of tuna / sardines /
T: Wholegrain pita with hummus / taramasalata / tzatziki / 5% Philly
S: either (Frozen) stirfry veg, soy sauce & spices AND shrimp / pork / beef / chicken AND egg-fried rice
or Lamb / beef / pork stew or tagine with lentils / chickpeas / pinto beans AND quinoa, plus butternut squash & spinach

Thank you.

Been a full on week not been able to keep up on here...... but welcome to all recent new-comers and returners, hope 5:2 can bring you all that you wish for!

Well done for all the successes and for anyone struggling, the early FDs are the hardest imo, lots of water, meals of protein and veg and a lick of marmite if you have a wobble all help. For me it's now the NFDs where I have most work to do - they work best when I don't snack at all and avoid refined carbs.

SV here- 1 1/2 lb down, slowly inching my way towards a healthy BMI and working on making my eating habits healthier. Rate of weight loss has slowed now, but know that that is healthier for the long term and making this a full WOE for life.

Nice NSV too as OH keeps telling me I 'm more shapely ( beginnings of a waist where once there was flab!). Told me today I look glamorous and even little things are delightful like we can hug more closey as his arms can wrap round me more fully - simple pleasures to celebrate!!

Have a good weekend everyone

Thanks BCF I'll give it a whirl! A month is a good goal as I've a wedding to attend at the end of July so motivation to fit in dress

Morning all,

NFD today, successful 3rd FD yesterday. Will weight myself after the 4th.

Planning FD on Monday and Wednesday next week as having a cocktail night with the girls on Thursday. I'm a very light drinker so will have 1 or 2 cocktails and will save the calories through the day for the evening.

BCF you look fabulous for nearly 60!

Thanks for the advice BCF and others. I'm jealous of how strong you are, you are an inspiration!

Can I ask why you recommend whole grain bread and not wholemeal BCF, isn't wholemeal less calories?

You also mention no more than 2 fruit a day? As on NFDs I usually eat a banana at 10am all I can grab at work on my break (well that or a chocolate bar and trying to stop that WOE), an apple as a 3pm snack, and 2 satsumas usually after dinner as pudding or hour after dinner when I get peckish. Is that not good?

Congrats on the closer hugs NSV, clear and the waist NSV.
Really good encouragement from your OH.

Thanks, Wiggle
Your plan for the week sounds excellent. Being a light drinker allows you more freedom to enjoy the delic food

TwinMama I suggest you aim for waist rather than a particular weight.
Main goal for health is waist / height below 0.5; good for clothes fit too.
Let's all aim for a fit, healthy body that we feel happy in and can maintain comfortably longterm

MrsTumble Wholegrain / wholemeal are different terms for the same thing:
made with minimally processed grain that retains its natural nutrients & fibre. Avoid bread made with white, heavily processed flour as it has low nutritional value, but high GI, so spikes your insulin.

"Multigrain" bread with a mix of say barley, millet, rolled oats or rye has a wide range of nutrients which can be worth the calories, within reason.
Most folk can enjoy wg bread regularly; just keep to 1-2 slices and don't slather on too much butter / cheese etc

Check the ingredients list for a healthy bread:
. the first ingredient should be a wholegrain / wholemeal, with any white flour far down the list
. it should have at least 2 g fibre per slice
. it should not have any added sugar, e.g. dextrose

wrt Fruit: I'm channelling Mosely, who strongly recommends keeping within 2 portions per day.
The recommendation is 1-2 portions fruit plus 5 or more portions veg (not counting spuds)

In fact his BSD book lists regularly having 3 portions among the warning signs for pre-T2.
Quite a few other doctors and researchers have been warning anout excessive fruit consumption, especially for women, who it is thought may be more vulnerable to its effects on insulin metabolism.
Athletes who do strenuous spirt, male weightlifters etc can eat far more fruit than lightly active women.

You seem to be having 2 "snacks" per day, rather than meals.
Try to avoid having fruit on its own, because the high GI spikes blood sugar and tends to move your body to fat storage rather fat-burning. Also keeps you hungrier, so you eat more over the whole day.

Swap one fruit "snack" for a veg & nut "mini-meal" in a bag e.g. red or yellow bell pepper with 4 walnuts / 6 almonds. It's a "mini-meal" because you have veg, protein & good fat (for about the same 100 calories as the banana)
To convert the other snack, add a small tub of plain Greek yoghurt. Add your own feuit, to avoid commercially added syrup / sugar) e.g. berries, apple.

Checking in for the third FD of the week, I thought I'd chuck an extra one in on a Saturday for a bit of damage limitation and to try to shift the scales down as I keep hovering over the same couple of lb.

Poorly toddler here so I saw pretty much every hour last night. Despite that the FD has been going well. I'm going to be having an early tea of prawn salad so I can go to the gym when DH gets home. Last night I was in the gym at 10.20pm as it was the only time I could fit it in..had the bonus that I wasn't too sleepy for the first few hours DD was up although did make be laugh that I clearly don't have a rock n roll social life anymore!!!

Good luck with the FD, Bugsy Poor you after that terrible night, but not too long to go now (if you're in the uk)
Are you mfping your NFDs, to check vs TDEE ?