5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning all . Just checking in before I get out if bed. FD2 of the week for me. I have a late lunch planned at 140 and dinner will be mushrooms and eggplants (need to figure out cals for quantity but should be relatively low). I have my stick of M&S ginger beer so am ready for the day 😊. Good luck to all my fellow fasters.

Morning everyone!

Thursday fast day here, seems to have arrived early but only because my usual Monday FD was delayed until Tuesday

Going to get my bodyweight exercises in this morning. I don't have a problem exercising on FDs (lucky me!) but I do have a problem if I leave it until the end of the day when I feel all tired and "can't be bothered".

Good luck all Thursday fasters, see you on the other side!

Ooh, thanks for the reminder, grifone; must remember to pick up some ginger beer on the way to work - I love it!

Hello all.

I have had to give up 5:2 as I found out rather unexpectedly that I am pregnant again! Still logging what I eat in mfp but just not fasting. In a way it's a shame as I was really enjoying this woe! But really happy and fingers crossed its all ok.

I do however have a question on behalf of my husband if BCF you or anyone else can help please....
He has been doing 5:2 for a month now and is loving it. However he only has a very little bit left to lose and the weight is coming off too quickly. He was wondering about dropping down to one fast day a week - would that be the best option or is he better off upping his cals in his FD? He has 700 cals on his FD and then either his TDEE or less on NFD. He's now wanting to slow down the last kilo or 2 that he has left to lose and then move to maintenance (which again he has no idea what's the best thing to do). I appreciate for most of us we would love to lose so quickly but he really needs to slow it down. He loves this WOE so doesn't want to stop completely! Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. I'm so proud of him, he's completely overhauled his eating and really embraced this woe.

Morning all

Welcome to the newbies and fasters!

Pooch - congratulations!!! If I were your DH I'd increased the TDEE by say 100 / 200 cals for each NFD... that should slow the losses a bit and would be a preparatory step towards maintenance (for me, I'm planning on keeping to 2 FD on maintenance mostly, and eating back the cals)

Thursday FD here, always like a Thursday as its a pretty manic day so I don't really get chance to stop and think that I'm hungry! I'll have my main meal at lunchtime (paprika chicken and veggies), and a light dinner when the kids are in bed - half a bag of sainsburys bgty caesar salad. That will leave me a little under in case I want a hot choc or something sweet later.

Morning all. I'm joining the Thursday fasting gang today
< grabs a ginger beer and sits burping beside grifone, mtum >

Congratulations, littlepooch
Well done to your DH on his SV and brilliant progress.
If he hasn't already done so, I also recommend 3 days per week he adds lifting or body weight exercises (pressups, pullups, squats) - for health & shape, to build muscle and to get ripped like our own B&W

How to taper down weight loss depends on what his maintenance preferences are:

1. without FDs, maybe with daily 16:8 averaging TDEE - keep NFDs as they are, drop to 6:1, then drop the final FD at goal weight
2. 6:1 drop one FD now. Wait 1-2 weeks after this and then gradually increase NFD cals until he maintains at goal
3. 5:2 Increase weekly cals now by say 10% over the NFDs, wait 1-2 weeks and if necessary keep tuning them every couple of weeks.

Bestbeas I recommend you cut the snacks, so you can enjoy the birthday meals properly, without gaining

MrD I agree that 5:2 with eating back the deficit sounds the best maintenance plan for you.
Also build on your excellent progress with exercise & fitness and weigh daily or weekly.

• The first 2 years after losing a lot of weight, you will probably experience adaptive thermogenesis, i.e. your TDEE will be below that of someone naturally at your goal weight without dieting.
  This is your cunning body trying to get back to its highest weight.
  5:2 with some NFDs above TDEE will help increase your BMR and TDEE

• The FDs give you the tools to handle any blips, until your body accepts its new set point.
  In particular it enables you to deal immediately with any holiday regain - many people who give up FDs find regain can spiral after holidays.

5:2 or 6:1 also suits anyone who doesn't naturally eat around TDEE, and / or or who found loss was slow

Yesterdays fast went well. I don't normally eat til lunch time the day after a fast (I tend to save all my calories for tea on fast days, so had a reasonable tea of chicken and veggies) and I don't eat breakfast normally.

Had a bowl of cornflakes this morning though and I was starving by lunchtime! Unfortunately, I was working away from the office so had limited options for lunch - ended up with an egg mayo and bacon baguette which was huge which is higher cal for lunch than I usually have...I'm not usually so fussed, but I like to keep a lid on it during the week even on nfds so I have a bit more leeway on weekends.

Anyway, off out for a run shortly and will forgo the garlic bread with tea so should end up about right!

I

Second fast day of the week and my last before my holiday. I haven't lost as much as I wanted but it's enough for me to feel a lot better in a bikini, and to fit into my summer clothes. Next challenge will be finding the motivation to lose the holiday gain and keep it that way!

I'm struggling today, another crazy busy work day meant I didn't get my "lunch". Whilst it means I can have a bigger dinner, I'm not sure I can hang on that long as H doesn't get back until 7pm on Thursdays!

Thanks Annie and BCF.

Having another shot at a FD today! As I was out at a meeting most of the day (or stuck in traffic) have managed to avoid food. Did have a bowl of beans in a spicy tomatoey sauce for lunch at the place where we were meeting. I don't know what the cals were, but can't imagine there were loads. Tonight is a curry from the Waitrose my Goodness range - so under 400 cals there and had nothing else all day.

I know you're right BCF. Just it's hard! I really enjoy snacking. I think I need to up what I eat at meal times in terms of protein so I have less cravings.

Best fast day yet. All I have eaten today is three mushrooms with some marmite. Will have a stirfry and some berries, but not feeling particularly hungry. Body must be adapting! Hoping for a good loss tomorrow.

Hope everyone else has had a good day.

You can nail your FD, Zeek, Drop

Sounds like you have adapted very well to this WOE, BestBees
You must look visibly leaner to have inspired your friends to 5:2

ClashCity Cereal is very carby and usually packed with sugar, so your insulin level spikes and then soon crashes, which is why you felt so hungry before lunch
For a satisfying breakfast that keeps you properly fuelled, have plenty of protein, e.g.

• Bacon wholemeal sarnie
• Scrambled eggs & tomatoes or cheese / veg omelette
• Pnut butter on wholegrain toast
• Smoked salmon, cream cheese & lemon bagel
• Porridge with almond milk, berries / apple slices with skin, cinammon & flaked almonds

Well, apart from the handful of chips I just snaffled it hasn't been a complete disaster and should be a significant number of cals below my TDEE. And that is all I'm aiming for at the moment- then work my way down. Least that's the plan.

Hi all still not keeping up with all the news here.

Welcome to all returners and newcomers!

Having a slightly better week stress levels-wise but still not back on an even keel - emotionally very up and down so don't think the scales are going to show anything good as have eaten more than usual.

2nd Fd today gone fine, will try upping the protein tomorrow and be very careful with my NFD.

Thanks bcf that makes sense.

When I have eggs and bacon for breakfast on a weekend I'm not usually hungry til teatime. Just goes to show the effect different foods have on you.

You are making progress, clear and regaining your mojo
Today, try to roughly plan 4 meals as your menu for tomorrow, so you don't have to decide under pressure what to eat. Focus on high nutrients, to replenish your body.

. At each meal, have protein & veg, plus optionally a complex carb like sweet potato, brown rice or quinoa
. NO snacks. You can last 4 hrs between meals.
. Aim to eat beans or lentils daily, to boost veg protein and help stabilise insulin levels.
. I find unsweetened Greek yoghurt is a satisfying pud, also boosts calcium.
. Replace milk by almond milk, if you take hot drinks or porridge. Stevia or cinammon to sweeten, not honey or syrup
. Of course, drink lots of water during the day and plan a good sleep every night.

Evening all, successful FD here - feel like I've not drunk enough water though, so glugging like mad before I go to bed!

Fingers crossed for a loss tomorrow!

Could I hop on the thread too? Have been 5:2 for the last 4 weeks and managed to drop most of the half stone I acquired since an injury in Feb left me doing nothing but sitting and eating until recently. Am finding managing hunger on fd easy as long as I drink lots but am being pole axed by tiredness by about 5pm on fd and need ideas to combat it. I still can't exercise much (doing physio daily though) so not sure if that's the problem? Any suggestions gladly welcomed.

Evening all. I'm nearly there with my first fast of the week as I had a horrible migraine Monday and Tuesday. Great to hear everyone's progress. Congratulations little pooch.

Signing off for the day. Total calories approx 530. Nighty night all.

Welcome, cheerfullady and well done on your SV
That's good you already drink lots of water

re FD tiredness:

• When you feel weak at 5pm, have you been saving all your cals for supper ? Some people feel better splitting their cals into 2 meals, breakfast / linch and supper
• Make sure you eat your full 500 cals on the FD.
• Are you eating starchy carbs & fruit on FDs ? That may cause an energy crash later. I suggest reducing these on FDs (enjoy them on NFDs) and concentrate more on protein with plenty of veg
• On FDs, we always say NO alcohol. Also avoid fruit juice & breakfast cereals then.
• I suggest after lunch that you try a double espresso and / or a brisk 10 minute walk. This should help keep your energy levels up for the afternoon & evening.
• A teasp of Marmite mid-afternoon may help too.
• I recommend everyone tries to have an early night on FDs, to maximise fasting benefits

Well done, Thursday fasters

Another pound off taking me to 9.12! No snacking starts today! Could anyone give me an idea of what they eat for a non fasting three meals no snack day? Need to see if my portion sizes are ok.

Good luck to everyone today.

FD today - usually do a Thursday but I'm staying with my aunt so moved to today with the travel home... Feeling hungry already and only 8am!

Morning all! Well I made it to 2 FDs this week although the first on Tuesday was my most successful at 505 and yesterday's was my least at about 680. I went to a meeting yesterday where the lovely people had lunch waiting for me! So nice of them but threw me off track a bit. Luckily I was able to choose plain chicken and salad so not a disaster.
BUT! Weigh in this morning is another 3lb off! That's 4lb over 2 weeks. My weight loss seems to stop and start a bit but that's a big drop this week. Looking forward to the weekend now and feel motivated to stay at TDEE and not ruin it all with bank holiday madness.

Congratulations pooch that's lovely news! Have a good holiday dropzone and hello happy Friday all new and familiar FDers and bigchoc. The support on here has been great!