5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

re apples: I meant low carbing + 5:2 combined tend to suit

Thanks all, super helpful. Will implement and check back!:)

Although bcf, all your references to how important sleep is to overall life has my toddler-newborn-sleep-deprived eyelids screaming "see I neeeeeeeed sleeeeeeep science sayyyyyys so!"

Kitchen closed at 512.
Good day today with 40 lengths and 20 mins of Pilates. Come to bed now to read my book.

Hi everyone!
FD today, first of the week. Did the nearest to 500 I've ever achieved at 505.
Been 5 weeks now and I've lost one inch from both my waist and hips. Very happy! I've tried on a few clothes from last summer which were too small for me, and now they fit! I think I'm losing around a steady 1lb per week.
Watching Chelsea FS and then bed to dream about all my dresses that I can now wear again!

Well done, Mooey, Knotted and all the Tuesday fasters

Congrats on your inches & clothes NSV, Knotted Enjoy your summer glad rags - if you've a fair bit of weight to go, you'll need to buy smaller outfits later

GardenGirl Next time I'll add a disclaimer "those with small children should avert their eyes from the next tip"

Hi all, just checking in after today"s FD. It wasn't my best with an estimated maximum 700 cals but pisdubky closer to 600. I forgot I was fasting as I never do Tuesdays normally and ate an orange that dh had peeled for me and also a small piece if bread with a few beans. Not to worry. I think I will try aim for between 800- 1000 day tomorrow and Thursday as this week is pruvibg a difficult one with birthdays and other social events.

Grifone 3 successive mini-FDs is not usually a good idea, because it can trigger overeating and throw you off track.
However, what can help is to keep insulin levels stable by making those mini-FDs low carb, i.e. no sugar, starchy carbs or fruit, just protein & masses of veg, some fat.

If you can't do low carb minis, then I suggest you have a healthy low GI NFD tomorrow, not more than 2-300 below TDEE, then nail an FD on Thursday

Morning all!

NFD here; just trying to get back into my routine for the week, having had to travel on business Monday and Tuesday. I stayed with my sister on Monday (usually FD) and allowed myself to be led from the path of righteousness by a takeaway! Kept it reasonable, all vege, but still, no FD Monday so did one yesterday instead. Back on track now

I'm looking on this experience as positive, in that it demonstrates how flexibility can be achieved, and I don't get into the mindset of "well, I've missed my fast day so might as well give up!" (Can't say I wasn't tempted, though!)

Thank you bigchoc for the advice.
I'm getting a thyroid blood done today. I had mine removed 5 years ago because of a growth.
The trouble is if the results are in range of NHS guidelines GPs generally won't increase meds. They don't treat optimum numbers for an individual.
I've been 3 weeks on 1400, using mfp to check.
My waist - height ratio is .47. - 32 inch waist & 5ft7.(that's right??).
Will change my gym to more weights & speak to PT who does tabata sessions for more help.
Keep plugging away, having mini FD today every little helps.😀

Had a NFD/payday takeaway last night. The scale says I "put on" 4lbs, which isn't possible. It just shows you how much salt was in it, to retain that much fluid.

Still, it was super tasty. My partner and I have got our takeaways down to once a month, so I won't cut it out. You don't get fat and sick from one meal a month!

Just need to get all the other problematic foods in check now

Thanks BigChoc. That sounds much more sensible and achievable ☺

Forgot to check in again last night - kitchen was closed on a successful FD. Scales showing a nice little decrease already this morning so looking forward to the Friday official weigh in.

b&w - that breakfast I have to say doesn't sound appealing to me, but it does sound super healthy!
Who are monsanto - and should I be avoiding them??

knotted, grifone and mooey - well done on sucessful FDs

mttum - good learning experience!

Jalapeno, you're right of course, it will be mostly retained fluid- so get glugging to help flush it out!

Drinking so much water I can almost hear myself sloshing when I walk!

I'm sure B&W will put it much more eloquently, but Monsanto are a multinational responsible for making GMO seeds. Even people who are pro GMO have an issue with the company who are patenting seeds.

If a farmer uses non-Monsanto seeds, and through wind distribution a Monsanto seed ends up in their fields - said farmer has no control over this - Monsanto will take legal action under intellectual property infringement and run the farmers out of business. It sounds far fetched, but they've been doing this systemically for years, running non-Monsanto farmers out of business in America and beyond.

They are not an ethical company on so many fronts.

Have managed to get back on track today - a NFD at 1461 cals which is just under 400 less than my TDEE.

Have been reading the thread and saw the post about Apple shapes doing better than pear. I am very pear and was wondering what I could do to improve? other than actually stick to the bloody fast days of course

I've also wondered, over the years whether I have thyroid problems - it runs in my family with almost all my fathers family having it, including my father. But the tests always come back negative, even though my GP thinks there's a problem.

Anyway, I probably haven't lost anything this week, but my loose trousers are still loose!

After a couple of weeks where this all seemed doable, I've had a really hard time this week but the end of my second fast day is sight! Its been hard to concentrate because of the hunger and at times I've felt a bit sick. I recon on I have 350 calories for dnner though so I might change my planned meal for something a bit more substantial

I seem to be loosing 1lb a week which is good but when I realise I have 21 more weeks of this it feels a bit depressing.

Totally off thread
Zeek - with the thyroid tests coming back as 'negative'. The tests come into ranges, which have to be in optimum range for you. NHS uses these and say your normal.
Your usually tested for free T4 -(range 12-22) optimum levels are any number over 16.
TSH (thyroid secreeting hormone) has a nhs range of 0.5 - 6.0.
A result of under 1 is good.

Both my results were approx 8-9 & I felt really bad tired sleepy psycho bitch. Low iron constipation all sorts.
If your doc thinks it's wrong ask about it again.
We have a family history of autoimmune conditions which thyroid falls into.
You might have to argue the toss about it, I ended up getting my sick thyroid removed privately.
My dr is chocolate teapot variety

Hi, can I join in the thread please?
Have started 5:2 again this week after doing it for a few months 3 years ago. Am not overweight, about 9st 3 at 5ft 3, but would feel so much better being 6-7 lighter. I run 4-5 times a week, about 20-25 miles in total.
Lost a couple of pounds when I did it before but unfortunately used the NFDays as an excuse to chow down chocolate bars which I wouldn't normally have done!! Was nice though! Have read up a bit more (thanks BCF and everyone else) and realise that I will have to watch going over my tdee on NFD rather than thinking I have a license to eat anything that isn't nailed down! Have fasted Monday and today, Monday I was starving all day, but today has been lot better. Love a few wines which I will try to cut down on too. Look forward to making myself accountable on here and fingers crossed some of those pesky pounds will disappear.
I was looking at some photos from when I did this a few years ago and have noticed that although my weight wasn't any different to now, my waist looked a lot 'tighter' xx

Annie - I just get told its in the normal range - which is annoying as my degree involved lots of endocrinology and, although far too many years ago, I do remember bits. My GP is great - she's known me professionally for years as I work in primary care research and she's one of my recruiting practices! But she too is constrained by the tests available.

Are the private tests better? I am so bloody exhausted sometimes, struggle to loose weight (obviously) and it's not that my diet is crap, or I overeat or anything often. And then I get a feeling that there is a lump in that area of my neck where the thyroid is.

It's really frustrating.

Evening all!

I was doing 5:2 successfully for six months a couple of years ago with good results - I don't weigh because I find myself getting over-obsessive am not great at seeing the bigger picture but went down 2 dress sizes.

Then Christmas happened, then family shit happened and off the wagon I rolled.

I have clambered back on board and thought I'd join you lovely lot for a bit of support and inspiration! I'm on my third week - so far I have been fasting on Mondays and Wednesdays, eating at about tdee - 20% on three days and not tracking at all on two days.

It seems to be working - my trousers are definitely looser and I've actually started to enjoy that emptied out feeling on fast days.

Zeek The private tests were standard same as nhs.
I had the lump in my throat for years, being told that I had a fat neck. Enlarged thyroid with a nodule the size of an apple attached. It was squashing my wind pipe. Nhs wouldn't investigate. After the op the gp wouldn't give meds so I went back had bloods done & private surgeon arranged things.
As I said go through the ranges with your GP see if she can help. This gives an idea on how the results play out with GPs
Hth.
www.thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testing/interpretation_thyroid_blood_tests.html

Zeek Explaining further about "apple" and "pear" shapes:

• Neither body shape loses fat more quickly in general, but they may do better with different types of food.
• Apples tend to have insulin resistance and are at increased risk of T2. They lose more easily on lower carb, but still need IF with a weekly calorie deficit
• Pears don't need low carb, just the IF calorie deficit.
• However, everyone loses more quickly if they keep sugar & alcohol to sensible amounts.

Welcome back, LINDSAY, ClashCity
As you have both discovered, sensible NFDs are the key to good progress, so that you don't eat back the FD calorie deficit.
Nailing the NFDs also trains you how to eat at maintenance.

Well done on the clothes NSV, ClashCity You've trimmed some bodyfat there.

LINDSAY Many folk find on 5:2 they are "smaller" than they would expect for their weight. This is because 5:2 tends to improve body composition, i.e. higher lean mass and lower % body fat.

Annie Your waist / height is in the healthy range, so probably your fat is mostly thighs & bum area, i.e. pear. So, keep to 1 drink NFD limit, but no need to low carb.

Sounds like the main change needs to be HIIT instead of steady state cardio. And, with your thyroid issues, lots of patience for the long haul.

You probably have reasonably good body fat levels, so you are really just trying to trim stubborn lower body fat.
What can help this is doing fasted Fat Blasts first thing in the morning, a few days per week, e.g. 5 mins sprint intervals outdoors, or rope skipping intervals , or indoor burpees etc

Have name changed, was JalapenoJane.

Second fast day completed at 540. Extra 40 calories were for s Highlights drink - my physical therapist worked on my psoas muscle yesterday and I'm feeling very sorry for myself sore today and in need of extra comfort.

Hope everyone else had a good day 😀

Don't worry, nunni That 4lb is a temporary blip that should disappear after this FD or the next.
It would have been undigested food plus retained water from salt & from excess carbs: carbs are stored with 3-4 x their weight of water, so an extra 250g carbs would be an extra kg from that alone.

btw, that is one reason why low carbers who resume normal food immediately gain a few lb - water stored with carbs.

A monthly takeaway feast makes this WOE sustainable for you; it's a system that suits your lifestyle & preferences and probably reduces stress.

Mornin all!
Hi to new joiners and returners. I am liking this WOE so much I have recruited a few people who have noticed my weight loss. I really love how it is only two difficult days, feels very sustainable and I actually look forward to fast days. Off on a UK self catered holiday next week so hope to continue. Was planning on really cracking down on snacking but as it is also u birthday next week I will give myself another week!

Waving at any other fasters today!